Community Sharpening Journal, Part 2

[cabfrank]

I wish I could experience that level of sharpness. I've never had anything that sharp. What is in the lanyard hole?

[Guts]

I wish I could experience that level of sharpness. I've never had anything that sharp. What is in the lanyard hole?

What's your sharpening process like?

As I got obsessed with sharpening I was always chasing higher and higher sharpness. Somewhere along the way I settled on being able to slice a free hanging paper towel. In the past I had edges that could slice regular paper no problem, but couldn't slice paper towel or other fibrous material, so being able to do the latter just became my standard.



As for the lanyard hole, it's a screw post holding a wire clip adapter I made. Works ok on the Lil Temp 3 but not the favorite one I've made. Bolster made a post about one I made for him on the Goddard 4V exclusive a year or two back if you were curious, though that one is much nicer than the one on my LT3.

[cabfrank]

Got it. Yeah, my process is not going to get that done, but I don't need it anyway. It would just be fun to do for the heck of it. Just the Sharpmaker works for me. I've tried free hand, and would need much more practice.

[vivi]

Got it. Yeah, my process is not going to get that done, but I don't need it anyway. It would just be fun to do for the heck of it. Just the Sharpmaker works for me. I've tried free hand, and would need much more practice.

sharpmaker is enough to get those results.

brown rods are sufficient for catching arm hairs above the skin / cutting free hanging paper towels / push cutting thin receipt paper. white rods can make it even easier.

[cabfrank]

Really? Well then I guess I need to spend more time with one knife on a Sharpmaker. I'll start with my current sharpest and go from there. The nice thing about the Sharpmaker is that it doesn't take the skill or practice of bench stones.

[vivi]

Really? Well then I guess I need to spend more time with one knife on a Sharpmaker. I'll start with my current sharpest and go from there. The nice thing about the Sharpmaker is that it doesn't take the skill or practice of bench stones.

for me there's a couple of things that help me get really sharp edges off the sharpmaker.

1. clean stones work best. if you can see bits of steel on your SM rods, performance is less than 100%.

2. sharpening the knife to a lower angle than I'll be using the sharpmaker at. 12 degrees per side or so if I plan on using the 15 degree slots, 15 degrees per side or so if I plan to use the 20 degree slots. this means when you use the sharpmaker you're always working the apex, which saves time and means less frequent cleaning of your stones.

3. I get the sharpest edges when I do a full sharpening, i.e. remove any microbevel before applying a new one. this means for a 12dps/15dps micro bevel knife I take it to my plate, grind off the microbevel using a 12 degree angle, then apply a new one on the knife with the sharpmaker.

4. Using light pressure is key. I use light enough strokes with the sharpmaker that I ro not need to secure the base with my off hand or a clamp or screws. If you're pushing hard enough on your finishing strokes you slide it around without holding it with your off hand,you're using too much pressure.

5. I always finish plain edged knives on the flats, never the corners.

Using those tips I'm able to get shaving edges off the diamond rods, mediums give me edges that catch hairs without touching my skin, and fine rods give me hair whittling sharpness.

best of luck!

[cabfrank]

Thanks. I've read your tips before, and I will keep at it. These are good reminders.

[Brock O Lee]

New M1, circa 2014. Bye-bye factory bevel.



Check out my dual function strop / paint stirrer!

[Brock O Lee]

New 15 dps bevel for the Temperance. I'm pretty pleased with that.

The progression was Tormek diamond wheels (coarse 360, fine 600, extra fine 1200), black composite honing wheel (30 micron), leather wheel (1 micron diamond).

I used the "small knife" jig to clamp the handle instead of the spine. Clamping the blade was not secure because of the distal taper. It's a good jig to have around for pocket knives or tapered blades.



I get similar BESS scores with the Edge Pro. 80g is about my average for a 1000 grit burr-free edge. Interesting, because these are two completely different sharpening and deburring methods.



It glides through cigarette paper as if it's not there, so satisfying!



A few thoughts on the Tormek: It's trivial to mess up a knife bevel on the Tormek, especially the tip and the heel. These diamond wheels cut so aggressively and the corners are not radiused, so there is very little margin for error. It becomes easier when you develop the correct technique and muscle memory, but there is a definite learning curve. The stone wheel is easier to learn on, because it does not cut so aggressively. You can radius the corners with a SiC or coarse diamond plate to make them more forgiving.

The Tormek shines with long fixed blades and woodworking tools, especially when you have to remove a lot of metal and want to cut precise repeatable angles. I still prefer the Edge Pro for reprofiling pocket knives because I have more control.

[Guts]

Honed my bumblebee PM2 in Magnacut this time with the 400gr Naniwa resin bonded diamond stone. I think I used 1um tech diamond tools paste on this one. Bevel was already set previously on the first sharpening so honing it was quick and easy.

[vivi]

slapped a quick 5,000 grit edge on my temperance 2. gonna need to go back down to coarse stones at some point and take it a little thinner and even out some spots towards the tip.






That said it's a pretty mean edge. Can't run it over arm hair without touching the skin, it just sticks. Effortlessly whittles arm hair. I'm so used to chasing clean shaving sharpness off 200-400 grit stones that this felt like cheating.

Used a DMT Coarse, DMT Fine, then a shapton kuromaku enzi

[Ow!Icutmyself!]

Hi Vivi, it’s funny - I just tried to blow the hair off my phone screen! Wiping it didn’t work either!
Just got my new Sharpmaker today - on my birthday no less.
My personal learning curve begins.

[RyanY]

In your experience, what is the highest level of wear resistance or carbide volume that you can still effectively sharpen with quality non-diamond stones like the shapton kuromaku? Or even the sharpmaker ceramic rods?

If the answer is "It depends on the carbide type and hardness" or something like that then can you provide some benchmark steels? Obviously VG10 is good to go. S30V seems fine as well. On the higher end of chromium carbides how about 20CV? On the higher end of a mix of chromium and vanadium carbides what about S90V? For high alloy tool steels is the cutoff 3V? 4V? M4? 10V? K390? Is it madness to attempt 15V on a kuromaku? To be clear, I am okay with setting the bevel or reprofiling on a diamond plate, I’m just wondering about if there are issues with doing the finishing and refinement. For example, I like to do as Vivi suggests and freehand a 12-13 degree angle and then do refinment and burr removal on the 15 degree sharpmaker rods but I was told by a couple people that that sharpmaker rods or the kuromaku stones were not appropriate for something like k390 or 15V because they don’t shape the carbides.

What are your thoughts, and at what point do you say diamonds for the full progression are mandatory?

[M_J87]

Does anyone else feel like they're constantly battling sharpening the tip of their knives? To me it's the most important part of the knife for skinning and gutting game/fish but I can never seem to get the very tip sharp, and if I do it seems I lose is very quick and the cycle repeats. Do I expect too much out of the steel/blade (VG10 FFG S2XL) against the occasional bone or cartilage? I try to be as careful as possible, nowhere near abuse or misuse. About 1/16th" of the very tip. I run it about 15 DPS with a 20 degree microbevel from the sharpmaker. I don't have any problem getting anywhere else on the blade shaving sharp. Advice would be appreciated.

[RugerNurse]

4. Using light pressure is key. I use light enough strokes with the sharpmaker that I ro not need to secure the base with my off hand or a clamp or screws. If you're pushing hard enough on your finishing strokes you slide it around without holding it with your off hand,you're using too much pressure.

I have a hard time remembering this. I want to grind away at whatever stone or rod I’m using. I took my Delica and ran it lightly over the 20° side white rods and got some clean paper towel cuts.

[Scandi Grind]

Does anyone else feel like they're constantly battling sharpening the tip of their knives? To me it's the most important part of the knife for skinning and gutting game/fish but I can never seem to get the very tip sharp, and if I do it seems I lose is very quick and the cycle repeats. Do I expect too much out of the steel/blade (VG10 FFG S2XL) against the occasional bone or cartilage? I try to be as careful as possible, nowhere near abuse or misuse. About 1/16th" of the very tip. I run it about 15 DPS with a 20 degree microbevel from the sharpmaker. I don't have any problem getting anywhere else on the blade shaving sharp. Advice would be appreciated.

What sharpeners do you use?

[M_J87]

Does anyone else feel like they're constantly battling sharpening the tip of their knives? To me it's the most important part of the knife for skinning and gutting game/fish but I can never seem to get the very tip sharp, and if I do it seems I lose is very quick and the cycle repeats. Do I expect too much out of the steel/blade (VG10 FFG S2XL) against the occasional bone or cartilage? I try to be as careful as possible, nowhere near abuse or misuse. About 1/16th" of the very tip. I run it about 15 DPS with a 20 degree microbevel from the sharpmaker. I don't have any problem getting anywhere else on the blade shaving sharp. Advice would be appreciated.

What sharpeners do you use?

Baseline precision adjust. I've got form, pressure, etc pretty dialed in and have the digital angle guides and accessories to keep it true. My best guess is the thinness of the stone is leading to unintentional rounding because I have had the stone "fall off" the end, but not enough times (in my opinion) to truly make so much of a difference where I'm spending that much more time on the tip every time I sharpen. I also wasn't sure if there was some inherency to fixed angles where the farther you get from the pivot the more things get "weird", because I have seemed to notice that phenomenon with longer blades.

[Scandi Grind]

I've never used a guided system, so I can't give much advice there, but rounding the tip on that setup was my first thought as a possible cause. You say you use it for skinning though, so is the problem the pointyness of the tip itself, or the sharpness of the edge close to the tip? If we are talking sharpness near the tip, I wouldn't imagine rounding the tip would hurt sharpness too much, just the pointyness.

I sharpen on bench stones, so falling off the tip isn't a problem, but I did used to struggle with the edge near the tips of knives with a lot of belly. It was more difficult to hold the correct angles while accomodating the sweep of the blade. However the problem went away with practice and a little bit of rotation added to my stroke to help keep the edge pointed toward the stone. With a guided system I'm not sure if any similar problems exist.

As far as edge retention though, when cutting flesh you might benefit from trying a very toothy edge. 320 grit edges on my boning knife is killer and holds a working edge for much longer than medium or fine edges. What I have found is that soft materials cut better with a coarse edge, and hard materials better with a fine edge. So rope and meat, I go coarse. Wood and carrots, I go fine. That might not help you tip problem, but it may help overall edge retention.

If you end up micro-beveling as you described, when using a coarse stone be extra conscious to use VERY LIGHT alternating strokes, and don't overdo it. You could alternatively just ditch the micro-bevel step (still ending light and alternating), or you could set the edge around 320 and micro bevel with a fine stone. Very little with the fine stone though or you will rob the toothiness from the edge.

[M_J87]

Thanks for the insight. My issue definitely stems from sharpness near the very point, not the point itself, because I've maintained a good point thus far. For example, when gutting fish I can penetrate the vent just fine but when making my way up the body I need to go a tad deeper than I would like to otherwise to get it to cut. This is especially concerning because you don't want to puncture the stomach and potentially contaminate meat. It just feels like I lose a level of control when the very tip isn't quite as sharp.

I'll have to experiment a bit with the lower grit edges. I have heard good things about them, and pointing out the fact meat is more fibrous I think it could be advantageous to try it out.

[horzuff]

In your experience, what is the highest level of wear resistance or carbide volume that you can still effectively sharpen with quality non-diamond stones like the shapton kuromaku? Or even the sharpmaker ceramic rods?

If the answer is "It depends on the carbide type and hardness" or something like that then can you provide some benchmark steels? Obviously VG10 is good to go. S30V seems fine as well. On the higher end of chromium carbides how about 20CV? On the higher end of a mix of chromium and vanadium carbides what about S90V? For high alloy tool steels is the cutoff 3V? 4V? M4? 10V? K390? Is it madness to attempt 15V on a kuromaku? To be clear, I am okay with setting the bevel or reprofiling on a diamond plate, I’m just wondering about if there are issues with doing the finishing and refinement. For example, I like to do as Vivi suggests and freehand a 12-13 degree angle and then do refinment and burr removal on the 15 degree sharpmaker rods but I was told by a couple people that that sharpmaker rods or the kuromaku stones were not appropriate for something like k390 or 15V because they don’t shape the carbides.

What are your thoughts, and at what point do you say diamonds for the full progression are mandatory?

That depends on what You mean by "sharpen effectively".

If You mean fast, then I don't think there is any You won't be able to tackle on normal ceramic stones, especially if You start with a low grit diamond for the shaping/reprofiling itself.

However if You mean "effectively" as in optimizing the edge performance, then You have to limit Yourself to steels that don't have carbides/nitrides harder than the stone because then You break or rip out those carbides thus losing (or at least diminishing) the additional wear resistance they provide.

There was a decent table with the Vickers Hardness comparison of different carbides and abrasives but I can't seem to find it. But in general Vanadium, Tungsten, Niobium, Titanium form carbides and nitrides that are harder than Aluminum Oxide. Mixed Chromium-Vanadium carbides can vary from softer to harder than Al2O3 stones, the more Vanadium the harder they get. I imagine the same goes for mixed carbides of the other three elements above.

So, as far as my understanding goes, if there is more than 1-2% of the above mentioned elements You'd be better off with diamonds or at least Silicon or Boron Carbide abrasives to take full advantage of what the steel offers.