Brouwing a Better Brouwer

[bleasure]

Seems I've decided to obsess over the Brouwer lately. Probably bc 1. in terms of personal aesthetics it's in the top 3 knives Spyderco makes, 2. bc despite or maybe bc of that appeal it also gives me pause in a few ways, and 3. because I can't afford / can't justify buying based on those issues / don't have one. So, naturally I have extremely important opinions I wanted to share on making this the ideal folding knife for not only myself, but potentially many others. I could be very wrong about this, but my feeling is that a modified Brouwer has the potential to be a *serious* EDC hit with some changes. I can't speak for others though, so what I offer below is just a straight representation of my own feelings. Thanks in advance if anybody in the Co takes the time to read it, or entertain anything therein.

First of all, what I like about it: the blade design is perfect. The color is *perfect.* Overall design is perfect. Don’t change a thing about any of those, and frankly, please consider making more knives in this design lineage or at least this color. Even scaling it up to a larger knife would be incredible. If you can't do any of the below on this knife, please consider making a new one in the same vein!

Thoughts on a revision:
1. I believe the Brouwer's biggest issue boils down to its price - it's just so expensive, and that makes the issues with it all the sharper to everyone. None of the objections to or problems with this knife would be anywhere near as strong if it was even $50 cheaper. Why is it so expensive? Is it due to collaboration licensing with Brouwer? Or chiefly due to materials? If the latter, it doesn’t seem likely to be due to the blade steel, so it might be the titanium and Reeve lock, which presumably also involves licensing. This leads me to my second point:

2. The thing you might do to solve both the cost and clip complaints that plague this knife is change the lock type. Admittedly, I do not like frame locks whatsoever, mostly for how they change the feel and grip of a knife itself when engaged, but in this case I think there are other valid reasons to change. Given the overall design and intended function of the Brouwer, I think a ball-bearing/axis lock type would be absolutely incredible, although surely that’d require a complex redesign and another potentially high-cost lock type. Otherwise, a compression, back, or even liner lock would be excellent, and appropriate to this knife’s raison d’être. I recognize that there are not only redesign but perhaps even more important re-tooling costs that would inhibit this choice, but I think you’d knock out 80% of the issues / complaints with this change alone.

3. Blade steel. People complaining about ZDP-189 and the dark green are wrong imo, both about the association and about the steel. S30V is great for this knife, and certainly a better choice than the somewhat more brittle, and significantly more expensive ZDP-189. For a knife designed to be the perfect all-around everyday pocket knife, erring towards stainless while keeping away from the brittler, pricier, elite edge-retention steels feels like the right move. Personal preference tends towards tougher steels - obviously there’s no shortage of more durable, and even easier to sharpen stainless steels than S30V out there to choose from, whether S35V, CPM-MC, or semi-stainless like Cru-Wear/Z-Wear. But if steel choice dictates retail price, the balance needs to be in favor of lowering the latter. If S30V or something similar is the cheapest best option, it should remain the steel of choice - it’s an excellent one, regardless of trends.

4. Clip. As mentioned, changing the lock type would eliminate the problems surrounding lanyard hole/clip placement people have. I’d say short of that just get rid of the lanyard hole altogether, but that’s not likely to happen. Otherwise, the only idyllic wish here, if a full redesign was undertaken, would be for implementing a wire clip; presumably they’re cheaper, they're perfect for a smaller EDC knife, and they’re my favorite clip you make in terms of both function and looks.

I'd be interested to hear other's thoughts, on the above or their own experiences, and especially on whether the knife will ever get iterative CQI treatment given its specialty/collaboration nature. If you made it this far, thanks for reading.

[SG89]

The clip placement was CQI'd already. I had the previous version with the super high carry position. Haven't bought a CQI'd version.
In my experience the hole placement made it a little difficult to open.
I agree it should be a different lock type, backlock would be my preference.
I am fine with s30v.
I dig the blade shape.

[Airlsee]

Backlock Brouwer S45VN w/wireclip would be fantastic!!! If it was 10% larger that would just be extra.

[Matus]

As someone who owns and loves the Boruwer, here is my take on your wishes. Since these appear to have been formed without ever handling the knife, let me share some of my impressions. Please note that mine is the pre-CQI version (as I managed to get it new for a bit less):

• The knife is excellent in hand. It puts knives like Para3 to shame. Seriously. It is comfortable in any of the grips I was able to come up with. Also - if you need to apply a more serious amount of force - that is no problem.
• The finger choil has no jimping - that was an excellent choice. It is absolutely safe and secure. The lack of jimping adds to the whole feel of comfort and smoothness
• The clip while VERY comfortable in hand (because it conforms to the shape of your hand) is useless as clip. I replaced it with one from MXG (slim one, not those fugly ones with the big hole) like in the review by Nick. It fits the finish of the Titanium perfectly and does not create a hotspot.
• The finish of the Titanium is very beautiful, I prefer it to the Sebenza, even though both take snail trails.
• All edges are rounded, jut the spine of the blade and the hole are a bit sharp. That is an easy fix.
• The blade could have been ground a little thinner and possibly also from a bit thinner stock, but if you don't require this knife to slice fresh carrots, the blade is fine. Maybe one day I will dare to re-grid it, but I did not find it necessary quite yet.
• Even though I like small knives, I would prefer if the cutting edge were some 5 - 6 mm longer (or about 1/4"), as that would make the knife a bit better with stuff like cutting apples. But should that impair the ergonomy of the knife, then rather not.
• The action is smooth. This is not a drop-shut knife and I prefer it that way.
• Fit and finish is as one would expect from Taichung Spyderco factory. More power to them.
• I have taken mine apart and took out some of the tension from the lock bar (yes, I had to remove the steel lock insert to do that).
• I would prefer either a stonewash (like on Para3 LW in BD1N) or a finer satin finish (look at Opera), but it is not a deal breaker.
• When I was deciding on mine - I had it side-by-side with the Opera. They are in similar category though the Opera is more flashy, has more practical blade shape and has super smooth back lock (watch out, it wants to bite you). But the Brouwer is better made, far more nuanced and makes a more solid impression. Plus I will only trust HT on m390 from Lionsteel when I will see some cutting tests.

1) It is a Titanium framelock and is priced as such. Loose that feature and you might get a better price. Could it be 10 - 20 % cheaper? I guess, but in the grand scheme of Spyderco prices it is not outrageous. This is a relatively low volume and also the designer most likely did not work for free.

2) I don't thing changing the lock type would improve the price. I am at the point where I don't fine one lock type particularly better than all the others. This is a well made frame lock. Changing it to liner lock would make zero difference (to me those two locks only differ in patents, not in reality). Compression lock from Taichung would come with a weak detent what would not be much of an improvement and back lock would most likely require a considerable redesign of the knife.

3) Blade steel. Yes, I would prefer maybe XHP or S90V or even ZDP, but hey, there will be as many wishes as there will be people expressing them. Since this is a low sale volume knife I don't expect it will ever see a steel change.

4) Clip - as discussed above. You really want a deep-ish carry titanium clip - wether the knife is the CQI version or not. Yes, that adds to the cost.

[bleasure]

As someone who owns and loves the Boruwer, here is my take on your wishes...

Hey Matus, appreciate the detail of your reply and you raise some good points - say 'formed without ever owning the knife' though, and you'll be closer to correct. I do recognize it's a low volume specialty knife, as indicated in the op. That said, I esp. agree with your observations about:
-smooth choil with no jimping, a great choice for this knife
-overall feel and comfort, manufacturing quality
-a little more blade length couldn't hurt

I'm gonna throw a strong disagree down on the blade stock thickness, which is part of the attraction here vs, say, a dragonfly. I don't need it to be a portable kitchen knife.

On price: this depends on at least two kinds of context: 1) I'd contend that for such a small knife with a comparatively non ~premulum~ steel, it's on the higher end. It seems to me that's at least partly due to materials, and possibly 2 forms of licensing agreements, one of which could change and one that will not if they both do exist. 2) I'm also not some 49 year old man with thousands of dollars of 'disposable' income to spend on luxury consumer goods, I'm just someone who discovered this knife, really liked it/was frustrated by certain things, and can't afford it atm. So $190+ for a knife, in relation to other equally high quality knives that sell for significantly less, is, yes, "too" expensive - and I'm definitley not the only person who's raised that point. It also, again as noted, bears on the strength of the *other* objections many - including some fairly high profile knife reviewer types - have raised. Turns out though, I don't want a titanium clip! I genuinely like the wire clips the best out of SC's options.

Anyway, I think you're right about the most important thing: unlike other threads where people seem to have just magick'd new knives into being via wishing realll hard on the forum, I don't have a lot of hope a significantly different version is comin down the pike.

[aaronkb]

I’m in a not-quite-same-but-similar boat to the OP, I spend way more than I can really “afford” on knives but skipped the Brouwer due to many of those objections. I’d likely buy a version with a wire clip and either a more interesting blade steel (Magnacut, cruwear, xhp, LC200N, m4, k390) or a lower price. I probably would NOT buy it with a back lock…. I finally caved and bought a native 5 because I love everything else about the design, but I’m a compulsive fidgeter and the backlock aggravates my tendinitis somethin’ fierce. Comp lock and CBBL are awesome, liner would be fine, and I’m honestly fine with the framelock but if changing that would get the price down, I’m all for it.

[Matus]

I'm gonna throw a strong disagree down on the blade stock thickness, which is part of the attraction here vs, say, a dragonfly. I don't need it to be a portable kitchen knife.

Yeah, this is not a knife that screams for a thin blade, I give you that. It could have been ground a little thinner behind the edge, but it is OK as it is.

[Wartstein]

I'm gonna throw a strong disagree down on the blade stock thickness, which is part of the attraction here vs, say, a dragonfly. I don't need it to be a portable kitchen knife.

Yeah, this is not a knife that screams for a thin blade, I give you that. It could have been ground a little thinner behind the edge, but it is OK as it is.

2 5mm or even 2.00 mm would not really be a "thin blade" for such a small folder imho.

Perhaps the frame lock is more secure with a wider lock interface, and it is more comfortable to put a finger on a thicker spine, but other than that such an elegant cutting tool as the Brouwer would only profit from a thinner blade. And still be more than strong enough, especially given the a bit stouter tip.

I really like the looks of the Brouwer, and I really like the lock. I think frame- and linerlock are the most userfriendly and "narural feeling" locktypes. Also, the one side G10, one side metal handle is really cool imho.
I am not a fan of the short cutting edge though, but if it had a 2mm blade like the Chap, I'd seriously consider the Brouwer as an really elegant small folder option.

[dcluley]

Having carried this knife off and on since its release and modified over time to fit my liking, I would agree with absolutely everything Matus said.

I would add one more (and may be my particular knife) but it is a slight ramp for the ball on closing detent. From factory, all of the Tai Ching edges are super sharp, and the knife needs a little filing or sanding on the close edge on the tang where the ball crosses to make for a smoother closing experience.

My modifications included: Swapping the clip with an MXP deep carry titanium slim clip (much better in both ergonomics and deep carry profile), filing/sanding the profile in the scale for better access to the spidey-hole and smoother shape, smoothing some of the sharp edges on the spidey hole and finger choil, bronze titanium screws, slightly filing/sanding the detent ball edge on the tang, and cleaning, lubing, and adusting the pivot.

The only thing I haven't changed or can't change is the stock thickness, but as others have said, this is a "choice" and makes the knife a bit more of a robust option vs. EDC slicer. I maybe could hollow it out behind the edge, but I kinda like it as another option instead of maybe messing up an already really good thing.

YMMV.

[Michael Janich]

Dear dcluley:

Welcome to the Spyderco Forum.

Stay safe,

Mike

[zhyla]

None of the objections to or problems with this knife would be anywhere near as strong if it was even $50 cheaper.

Well, it’s discontinued and selling for $190 now. As a rule of thumb if it’s a collaboration and it gets mixed reviews, you will likely be able to pick it up cheaper at some point.

Why is it so expensive?

A titanium frame lock with Spyderco’s logo on it? That will be big money every time.

It’s an odd knife. I’d never heard of the designer before the collaboration. I kind of like the size and shape. But between the reviews and threads like this with walls of text about what could be better, I don’t find it that interesting.

[ladybug93]

having just recently handled a brouwer again, i have to say it's such a nice little knife. it feels like a distinguished gentleman's bushcraft folder.

if i were to change anything, i would just make it about 10-20% larger in every dimension but thickness. it would be really great if it had more cutting edge, like the amalgam, but maintaining the ril and not including the bearings, which i don't like in an outdoors folder.

the brouwer is smooth as glass though. it's really great for a small blade.

[ChrisinHove]

Interesting thoughts.

Mine (1st iteration) sports a flytanium carbon scale and ti deep carry clip. It’s much lighter and carries better as a result.

It’s a great small knife for those of us with large hands.

[Bolster]

I considered a Brouwer briefly but the large forward-situated choil/ricasso made me spend my $ elsewhere. If I'm going to carry that much handle, I want a proportional amount of edge.

[apollo]

I dont own a Brouwer since it was available when i was on a "break" from buying knives.
So i can not give my opinion on the knife.
But i do wanted to mention is last i heard the designer was not doing so well health wise.
So i am not so sure if a new brouwer wil ever be made in some way.

[TkoK83Spy]

I forgot all about this knife, has literally been YEARS since one was posted around here.

[ladybug93]

I considered a Brouwer briefly but the large forward-situated choil/ricasso made me spend my $ elsewhere. If I'm going to carry that much handle, I want a proportional amount of edge.

the brouwer was my number one choice when i thought i was going to have to carry a smaller blade at work in my new corporate environment. it is a short blade, but it's more than capable for my typical daily tasks. once i found out my workplace follows local laws for knife carry, i decided to stick with longer blades. it really is ridiculously nice though.

[ladybug93]

I forgot all about this knife, has literally been YEARS since one was posted around here.

i guess i understand why it's not more popular, but it's really great at being what it is. i think 3" of cutting edge would've made it more popular.

[mikey177]

What I like most about the Brouwer is how narrow it is in the pocket compared to other small Spyderco folders with pronounced humps.

It really lags behind though if one needs a longer cutting edge, as even the Delica is longer in this regard. Still, it's a very fine knife and one that I enjoy carrying from time to time.

[soulspy]

I got one of the OG Brouwers because I liked the shape. I put an MXG clip on it that kind of canoe paddle shaped and it carries with just enough to grab at the top. It's always been a great knife and one of my favorite whittling knives since it is lacking the jimping that some Spydercos have.

I have always had a slight concern about the lockbar on mine. The milled out area for the relief where the lockbar flexes is quite large. It is nearly half of the lockbar which makes it feel mushy to me. And it really has a lot of odd flex to it since there is such a long milled out area where the flex occurs rather than amore discrete area like other RIL I have. And when it's closed, the lockbar very nearly makes contact with the blade in the middle of the lockbar. I've never had any problems other than feeling that it is not as crisp or firm in its lockup.

Photo shows red arrow where lockbar very nearly touches the blade and the two blue arrows show on the right, lockbar flush with handle and on left, the lockbar sagging inward in the middle, nearly touching blade and also not flush with the handle.



Oh well, I guess. Every design has its own character and we all seem to like to decide what we like and don't like. Part of the enjoyment is trying to find the ONE knife that has everything we want and nothing we don't. Never stop searching!