Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

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Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#1

Post by zuludelta »

The Spyderco Karahawk is, by all indications, intended by its designer Sal Glesser to be a defensive tool. The marketing copy on the Karahawk product page on Spyderco.com touts the “high-strength back lock mechanism designed to withstand the stresses of defensive use” and a finger ring optimized for “high-speed manipulation.” But can the Karahawk also serve effectively as a utility cutting tool in a warehouse setting?

The modern karambit is descended from the weaponized version of the small harvesting sickles used in Southeast Asian agrarian communities such as the celurit and arit of Indonesia; the karit, garab, lilik, and gapas of the Philippines; and the sabit of Malaysia. In time, the karambit became incorporated in a number of the traditional martial arts native to those regions.
Traditional Southeast Asian sickles on display at the International Rice Research Institute (source: Twitter user @DrewCamps)
Traditional Southeast Asian sickles on display at the International Rice Research Institute (source: Twitter user @DrewCamps)
It is that cultural connection that initially drew me to the Spyderco Karahawk several years ago. I am a Canadian of Filipino descent who dabbled in Remy Presas' Modern Arnis system in my youth, and when I learned that my favourite knife company actually made a folding knife version of the karambit designed by one of my favourite knife designers, I immediately set about acquiring one.

It took a bit of saving up, though. The Karahawk is one of Spyderco's pricier production models. I paid about C$250 (roughly US$185) for my first Karahawk, the satin finish basic version in VG-10 steel. It was the most I had spent on a folding knife to that point, and it is the second most I have ever spent on a folding knife, all-time. First place on that list? My second Karahawk, an all-black model purchased a few years later.
Satin finish Karahawk (top) and TiCN-coated All-black version (bottom)
Satin finish Karahawk (top) and TiCN-coated All-black version (bottom)
I used that first Karahawk as one of my primary work knives for about two years straight. As many of you who have read my previous reviews and posts already know, a knife is my primary work tool. My official job title is “forklift operator” at one of the busiest warehouses in Western Canada but in practice, I spend at least half of my shift manually breaking down pallets of various products and preparing them for display, using a knife to cut nylon and polypropylene pallet straps, plastic pallet wrap, synthetic rope and netting, packing tape, and of course, cardboard boxes. So very many cardboard boxes. On a typical shift, I cut through anywhere between 25 to 60 metres (about 80 to 200 feet) of single-walled 200 lbs. and 275 lbs. test-rated cardboard. I cut more cardboard in a busy day at the warehouse than a small household does in a year, I imagine.

The Karahawk is what many knife users would consider a small or mid-sized folding knife. When open, it is actually a full centimetre shorter than a Native 5 Lightweight and a centimetre and a half shorter than the Delica 4. It is relatively wide in the pocket because of the protruding Emerson Wave opener on the spine of the blade, but it is very thin in profile, noticeably thinner than the already slim Delica 4. Because of this, the knife carries quite well in the pocket despite its atypical form. There is no hiding the finger ring when it is clipped to the right front pants pocket, but it is about as compact as one can get a folding karambit whilst still being large enough to be capable of actual utility tasks fit for a full-on work knife.
Karahawk compared to the Delica 4, Endura 4, Para 3 LW, PM2, Yojimbo 2, and Native 5 LW
Karahawk compared to the Delica 4, Endura 4, Para 3 LW, PM2, Yojimbo 2, and Native 5 LW
The Karahawk offers only slightly more cutting edge than a Dragonfly 2 Salt Hawkbill. This might seem inadequate for a work knife, but the Karahawk's disproportionately large handle means I can put a lot of force behind the blade without worrying about it rolling in my hand when using the knife in a conventional grip. It really feels like I can drive the cutting edge into material with a whole lot of power.
Karahawk compared to the Dragonfly 2 Salt Hawkbill
Karahawk compared to the Dragonfly 2 Salt Hawkbill
Adding to this sense of "extreme cutting power" are the cutting dynamics of the Karahawk's hawkbill blade. The inward curve of the knife's cutting edge captures the material being cut, keeping it from slipping off the blade, allowing me to exert the maximum amount of pressure at the point of contact. This is especially useful when cutting pallet straps. More conventionally-shaped blades—particularly those with a significant belly—will regularly skate off heavy-duty pallet straps. This benefit isn't unique to the Karahawk, of course. Spyderco makes a number of production hawkbill folders, and all of them offer this capability to the user.

What is unique to the Karahawk as far as Spyderco's production line-up, however, is the combination of the finger ring and the licenced Emerson Wave opener. The finger ring is a little over 2.8 cm (roughly 1 and 1/8 of an inch) in its interior diameter, which is large enough that I can fit my index finger almost all the way to the knuckle even when wearing work gloves (I wear small/medium-sized gloves).
Using the Karahawk's finger ring while wearing gloves
Using the Karahawk's finger ring while wearing gloves
The Karahawk can be deployed for use much faster than any of my other folders, even faster than my Emerson Wave-equipped Delica 4. This is because of two factors: the Karahawk's slightly shorter opening arc, and the fact that using my index finger to pull the knife out of my pocket with the finger ring immediately seats it into my hand in a very secure reverse grip (the Karahawk is configured out-of-the-box for right-handed reverse grip). By contrast, I find that I must still make minor adjustments to my grip on the Emerson Wave Delica 4 after pulling it out of my pocket for it to be in a truly ready position.
Karahawk in reverse grip
Karahawk in reverse grip
The finger ring and Emerson Wave opener also allow for even more unconventional opening methods, such as opening the knife into the reverse grip by using the Emerson Wave on the hem of the sleeve of one's jacket. It is very easy to set up the Karahawk for Wave deployment into the standard grip (it just means switching the clip to the other side), but in this configuration, whatever speed advantages it may have over other Emerson Wave-equipped folders are rendered largely moot.
Karahawk in conventional grip
Karahawk in conventional grip
How useful one finds the Karahawk's idiosyncratic features in a work/utility setting, therefore, is largely dependent on how comfortable and skilled one is in using a knife in a reverse grip. I am well-enough practised in the use of a karambit (and knives in general) that I can be quite fast and accurate with the Karahawk held in a reverse grip to make short stroke (less than 30 centimetre) straight-line horizontal and vertical cuts, such as when cutting display windows into boxes. I also prefer using the Karahawk in a reverse grip when carefully cutting into boxes containing bagged product—I stabilize the knife against the box using the finger ring, and using the finger ring as a pivot, I can use slight changes in pressure from my palm to very precisely control the penetration depth of the blade tip before continuing with the cutting motion. Employing this technique, I have never accidentally cut into a boxed, bagged product using the Karahawk, something which I cannot say for many of the more conventional designs that have served in my work knife rotation.

What I really like about the Karahawk, and what keeps it returning to my work knife rotation even as it gets booted out to make room for a new knife every few months, is how the finger ring makes it very convenient to carry a knife in hand whilst doing something else with that same hand. With the Karahawk, I can go from cutting pallet straps, to stacking boxes of product, to typing on a computer, to cutting netting, to driving a forklift, to cutting cardboard, all without having to pocket and draw the knife (I am quite adept at using my ring finger or pinkie to open and close the Karahawk in the reverse grip). The ring allows relatively free use of my fingers even as I keep the Karahawk securely in hand, and in a very, very busy warehouse work environment where I find myself almost always multi-tasking, this is a real game-changer.
There aren't very many knives that can be held at the ready while typing on a computer
There aren't very many knives that can be held at the ready while typing on a computer
The Karahawk is not without its weaknesses, of course. A knife design associated with violent, stylized martial arts displays in popular action films like John Wick 3 and The Raid 2 and martial arts instructor Doug Marcaida of Forged in FIre fame is likely to be regarded by the uninformed as a weapon instead of a tool regardless of usage context, and can attract unwanted scrutiny in the workplace and elsewhere. And then there is, as previously mentioned, the high price. I understand that G10 handle scales are more expensive in Japan (the Karahawk is manufactured in Seki City) and all the extra engineering, machining, and materials that go into making a folding karambit add significantly to the production cost, but paying upwards of C$250 for a small-ish, regular production folding knife in VG-10 steel is a bit hard to swallow, although that has become a bit more palatable now that the satin finish version has been discontinued and one can ascribe the premium price to increasing rarity. The C$300+ (approx. US$225+) that the still-in-production blacked-out Karahawk currently sells for, however, is “I need to hide this receipt from my wife/husband/significant other”-type money.

Speaking specifically of the blacked-out model, I have read—in this forum and others—of people having issues with the fit and finish of their all-black Karahawks. I have noticed this in mine, too. The G10 insert in the finger ring of my all-black Karahawk is not entirely flush with the ring's exterior circumference, whereas it is properly fitted in my older satin finish Karahawk. This flaw doesn't affect the functioning of the knife in any way, but it is definitely disappointing to see in light of what it cost.
The G10 insert on my all-black Karahawk sits slightly proud of the finger ring
The G10 insert on my all-black Karahawk sits slightly proud of the finger ring
Overall thoughts: I've found the Karahawk to be an extremely useful and versatile work cutting tool over the years. And it is also just a lot of fun to use (one cannot spell “function” without “fun”, after all). I will freely concede, though, that my experience with the Karahawk is perhaps not likely to be shared by many others. The advantages I've found to using the model are somewhat peculiar to my specific work context, and I am already predisposed to like the idea of a folding karambit because of my cultural background. It is very possible that I am more willing than most to pay the retail cost for a Karahawk and overlook any potential fit-and-finish flaws. The pricing and design of the Spyderco Karahawk make it a niche product to be sure, but it is no “mall ninja” novelty; it can be pressed into service as a serious warehouse work knife. It can perform just as well as more conventional knives in this regard while offering substantial usability benefits to those able to take full advantage of its folding karambit conceit.

NOTE: Edited for formatting
Last edited by zuludelta on Wed Mar 05, 2025 4:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#2

Post by The Meat man »

Very interesting to read, zuludelta. Thanks for the in-depth review. It's an interesting model that doesn't get much press, that's for sure.
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#3

Post by zuludelta »

The Meat man wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:21 pm
Very interesting to read, zuludelta. Thanks for the in-depth review. It's an interesting model that doesn't get much press, that's for sure.
Thanks! And yeah, I am a bit surprised at the dearth of user reviews of the Karahawk, or other folding karambits for that matter. It seems to me that karambits are very popular with the "tacticool" and "mall ninja" crowd, but I suspect not very many people actually use them as work tools (which is, fair enough, somewhat to be expected), hence the lack of press and YouTube video reviews of any real substance.
Last edited by zuludelta on Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#4

Post by spoonrobot »

Thank you for the thread. I really enjoy reading detailed reviews like this.
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#5

Post by zuludelta »

spoonrobot wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:31 pm
Thank you for the thread. I really enjoy reading detailed reviews like this.
Thank you for reading and taking the time to comment! :)
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#6

Post by JuPaul »

I owned a karahawk for a while, but unfortunately it just didn't fit my smaller hands. The finger ring was too big, and in the wrong place no matter what grip I tried. I'd love a model with the same blade size, but a grip fit more for smaller hands. This is one reason I immediately pre-ordered a Swick when they were revealed - I was so happy to see the model offered in different sizes!
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#7

Post by Abyss_Fish »

Absolutely love seeing reviews like this.

How often do you get harassed about how "murder-y" your carahawk is as you mentioned? Because while I agree it's super high performance, it's also up there with the matriarch in terms of murder-itude.
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#8

Post by zuludelta »

JuPaul wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:54 pm
I owned a karahawk for a while, but unfortunately it just didn't fit my smaller hands. The finger ring was too big, and in the wrong place no matter what grip I tried. I'd love a model with the same blade size, but a grip fit more for smaller hands. This is one reason I immediately pre-ordered a Swick when they were revealed - I was so happy to see the model offered in different sizes!
I'm really looking forward to the new Swicks, too. It was on the top of my list of knives to get in 2020 after the Reveal 5 catalogue dropped, but I guess it's looking more like a 2021 release at this point.
Abyss_Fish wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:19 pm
Absolutely love seeing reviews like this.

How often do you get harassed about how "murder-y" your carahawk is as you mentioned? Because while I agree it's super high performance, it's also up there with the matriarch in terms of murder-itude.
I get the odd looks from coworkers every now and then for using "non-standard equipment", but I think everyone and my manager know me well enough at this point that they don't care. I get the job done (often faster & better than any 3 other people put together), and that's all that really matters in the end.

Ironically enough, the warehouse is one of the few places where I am fully comfortable carrying a Karahawk clipped to my pocket. I won't go into a detailed discussion of Canadian federal knife laws, but the long & short of it is that it is legal to carry just about any knife here as long as you're carrying it as a tool solely for work/utility purposes (unless it's a prohibited weapon such as a balisong, a punch dagger, or an automatic knife—I could rant here about how these laws seem to unfairly target certain ethnicities and the disabled/differently-abled, but this is neither the time nor the place).

Anyway, legality here revolves around intent (or perceived intent), not blade length, but nonetheless, I make sure I am never in a position where it can be misconstrued that I am carrying a Karahawk as anything but a cutting tool for work.
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#9

Post by ChrisinHove »

Interesting real world review! Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#10

Post by James Y »

Another great review, zuludelta!

The Karahawk was never even on my radar before. Even if it still isn’t, it’s great to read about how it performs for real-world utility use. I carry knives for utility as opposed to SD, so it’s always refreshing to read reviews like yours that discuss extensively how a model primarily designed as a SD tool functions as a daily working tool. It was your review of the Yojimbo 2 that has me interested in that.

Thanks.

Jim
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#11

Post by Bill1170 »

This review made my morning. I love reading/hearing the details of someone’s unconventional tool use. The finger ring and reverse grip make for a refreshingly different approach to warehouse utility function. Thank you, zuludelta!
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#12

Post by zuludelta »

ChrisinHove wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:53 am
Interesting real world review! Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for taking the time to read and comment :)
James Y wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:32 am
The Karahawk was never even on my radar before. Even if it still isn’t, it’s great to read about how it performs for real-world utility use. I carry knives for utility as opposed to SD, so it’s always refreshing to read reviews like yours that discuss extensively how a model primarily designed as a SD tool functions as a daily working tool. It was your review of the Yojimbo 2 that has me interested in that.
Thanks man, I'm glad that you're digging the approach I'm taking to evaluating SD knives. I mean, on the one hand, I guess I'm entirely missing the point of these designs when I push them into service as serious work tools. But at the same time, reviewing them in this context, I think, is a more pragmatic appraisal of how they'll actually perform in the overwhelming majority of real-world use cases.

I am fascinated by and very interested in the different answers different designers come up with to solve the question of knife-based SD, but unless I've put in serious time with 1:1 dedicated trainer versions of those designs (and only very few of them have these readily available), I just don't have a lot that is genuinely meaningful to say about them in this regard.

And even then, my philosophy is that because reliable SD techniques revolve mostly around the use of gross motor movements that can be called upon in high-stress situations (at least for novices or people who cannot devote a lot of time to dedicated knife-based SD training), the granular points of SD knife design are probably less important for the novice than drilling those gross motor techniques, footwork, and distance management, as well as developing a keen sense of situational awareness.
Bill1170 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:50 am
This review made my morning. I love reading/hearing the details of someone’s unconventional tool use. The finger ring and reverse grip make for a refreshingly different approach to warehouse utility function. Thank you, zuludelta!
Thank you, I really appreciate you taking the time to read & comment :)

And yeah, the Karahawk may not exactly be the most workplace-friendly design in my work knife rotation, but man, it is definitely the most fun I can have with a work knife outside of a balisong (I wish balisongs were legal in Canada, because I would love to use the upcoming SmallFly 2 as a work knife—I'd built up quite a repertoire of balisong tricks as a kid growing up in the Philippines).
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#13

Post by onewordnohyphen »

Thank you for the great review! I have a question:

Would you prefer a longish clip on this knife (as the one that's standard) or a shorter version (many aftermarket deep carry alternatives)? It feels like this could make a difference for how Emerson could be used (or avoided) but I am not sure.

In my experience, excessive use of Emerson stresses the pivot because it could pull the blade sideways.
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#14

Post by Cycletroll »

Very nice report on an interesting knife zuludelta! Thanks for the effort and sharing :)
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#15

Post by Scandi Grind »

Hey @zuludelta , I guess this was originally posted quite a few years ago, but since someone resurrected the topic, I have a question. I bet you dull that thing pretty quick using it in a warehouse setting all the time, how do you go about sharpening it? And how often do you tend to sharpen it?
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#16

Post by endura3 »

Scandi Grind wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2025 1:07 pm
Hey @zuludelta , I guess this was originally posted quite a few years ago, but since someone resurrected the topic, I have a question. I bet you dull that thing pretty quick using it in a warehouse setting all the time, how do you go about sharpening it? And how often do you tend to sharpen it?
I've also had the same thought about PE recurve or hawkbill blades. I'd imagine the sharpmaker is a good option, but I'd also be really curious to hear from folks who have used/sharpened these blades as I've only ever really sharpened PE knives on bench stones.
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#17

Post by zuludelta »

Cycletroll wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2025 12:33 pm
Very nice report on an interesting knife zuludelta! Thanks for the effort and sharing :)
Thanks!
Scandi Grind wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2025 1:07 pm
Hey @zuludelta , I guess this was originally posted quite a few years ago, but since someone resurrected the topic, I have a question. I bet you dull that thing pretty quick using it in a warehouse setting all the time, how do you go about sharpening it? And how often do you tend to sharpen it?
endura3 wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2025 1:27 pm
I've also had the same thought about PE recurve or hawkbill blades. I'd imagine the sharpmaker is a good option, but I'd also be really curious to hear from folks who have used/sharpened these blades as I've only ever really sharpened PE knives on bench stones.
It's been a while since I've used the Karahawk extensively at work... I'll use it from time to time just for fun & to break the routine of using my core rotation (Yo2 in S30V, LT3LW in K390, PM2 in Cru-Wear, Para 3 in Maxamet, S5LW in SPY27). I still regularly pocket it for EDC/personal-carry, though.

And yes, VG10 in PE in a relatively stoutly ground blade like the Karahawk tends to dull a bit quicker from warehouse work use compared to most of the other knives I currently use for work (all of which use PM/Micro-Melt/MicroClean steels), although it isn't bad. When the Karahawk was one of my primary work folders, I used to touch it up every 3 or 4 days on the Sharpmaker's brown rods, using just the corners of the rods to make sure I was getting into every millimetre of the inside curve. I've also touched it up with a round chainsaw file at work on a couple of occasions.

I used to do a proper resharpening maybe every 2 months or so, again with the Sharpmaker, going all the way from CBN to medium rods to fine to ultra fine (again, just using the corners of the rods).

The funny thing is my current work position doesn't have me doing as much cutting as I used to, and the revival of this thread now has me thinking of getting the Karahawk (and other favourite PE VG10-only designs like the Introvert) back into semi-regular work folder rotation!
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#18

Post by zuludelta »

onewordnohyphen wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2025 6:46 pm
Thank you for the great review! I have a question:

Would you prefer a longish clip on this knife (as the one that's standard) or a shorter version (many aftermarket deep carry alternatives)? It feels like this could make a difference for how Emerson could be used (or avoided) but I am not sure.

In my experience, excessive use of Emerson stresses the pivot because it could pull the blade sideways.
I've never really worried about excessive use of the Emerson opener putting additional stress on the pivot, but I can see how that can happen & how it might be a legitimate concern.

I've only used the standard length clips on my Emerson Wave-equipped Spydercos (of which I have a few: the Karahawk, Emerson Wave Delica 4, Emerson Wave Endura 4, Emerson Wave Matriarch 2, and P'kal), so I can't really speak to how a shorter aftermarket clip may or may not make it easier to draw the knife without engaging the Wave feature.

When I want to draw my Emerson Wave-equipped folders without engaging the Wave opening feature, I just angle the knife in such a way that the hook won't catch the seam of my pocket as I draw it (if there is enough space in my pocket, I will even put my forefinger over the spine of the closed blade to ensure it doesn't open). I probably do this just about as often as I use the Wave feature, because having the blade out & ready for use as it comes out from the pocket can draw unwelcome scrutiny in many work/social situations.
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#19

Post by SpeedHoles »

I was using a Lil Matriarch for awhile in a similar way. Even at one point with the aftermarket backspacer loop. I never did handle a Karahawk though.
I think I left the Lil Matriarch in a pair of coveralls somewhere haha, I'll have to dig that out and see if I can find it.
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Re: Oddly Effective: A Long-Term Review of the Karahawk as a Warehouse Knife

#20

Post by endura3 »

zuludelta wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2025 12:19 pm
Cycletroll wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2025 12:33 pm
Very nice report on an interesting knife zuludelta! Thanks for the effort and sharing :)
Thanks!
Scandi Grind wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2025 1:07 pm
Hey @zuludelta , I guess this was originally posted quite a few years ago, but since someone resurrected the topic, I have a question. I bet you dull that thing pretty quick using it in a warehouse setting all the time, how do you go about sharpening it? And how often do you tend to sharpen it?
endura3 wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2025 1:27 pm
I've also had the same thought about PE recurve or hawkbill blades. I'd imagine the sharpmaker is a good option, but I'd also be really curious to hear from folks who have used/sharpened these blades as I've only ever really sharpened PE knives on bench stones.
It's been a while since I've used the Karahawk extensively at work... I'll use it from time to time just for fun & to break the routine of using my core rotation (Yo2 in S30V, LT3LW in K390, PM2 in Cru-Wear, Para 3 in Maxamet, S5LW in SPY27). I still regularly pocket it for EDC/personal-carry, though.

And yes, VG10 in PE in a relatively stoutly ground blade like the Karahawk tends to dull a bit quicker from warehouse work use compared to most of the other knives I currently use for work (all of which use PM/Micro-Melt/MicroClean steels), although it isn't bad. When the Karahawk was one of my primary work folders, I used to touch it up every 3 or 4 days on the Sharpmaker's brown rods, using just the corners of the rods to make sure I was getting into every millimetre of the inside curve. I've also touched it up with a round chainsaw file at work on a couple of occasions.

I used to do a proper resharpening maybe every 2 months or so, again with the Sharpmaker, going all the way from CBN to medium rods to fine to ultra fine (again, just using the corners of the rods).

The funny thing is my current work position doesn't have me doing as much cutting as I used to, and the revival of this thread now has me thinking of getting the Karahawk (and other favourite PE VG10-only designs like the Introvert) back into semi-regular work folder rotation!
That makes sense - thanks for your response! Always appreciate your folder reviews by the way - they're really great summaries of what these knives are actually like in use.
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