Why Did The Jumpers Fail?

[Skywalker]

This, and your comments lamenting lack of edge length, is a lot of what kills the Delica/Endela comparisons for the Jumper in my mind. The leafjumper is over the common 3" legal limit, bulkier in pocket, thicker blade stock, and heavier than a Delica all while not having as much edge as an Endela.

IMO if the selling point is "upgraded" or "turbocharged" Delica the Jumpers don't make sense. K390 clip+wharncliffe Delicas and Endelas made sense to me - jumpers did not.
..

To me the Jumpers in Spydercos own lineup never "competed" with the Delica.

In size, weight, edge length, blade thickness, handle thickness, grip area on the handle and so on the Jumpers just for me belong into the Manix/Endela/Stretch category and are direct alternatives for those models.

Especially obvious imo is the comparison to the Seki sibling Endela - and here, though after a lot of consideration and pretty narrowly, for me the Endela "wins", despite the Jumpers are great models too.
And I have to say it, even if some don´t understand: One point for the Endela actually is the plus in cutting edge it offers.

Personally I wasn't 1:1 shopping Delica:Jumper either, but several comments in this thread have said that they saw the jumper as an improved or enhanced Delica, so the perception seems to be there for some.

[zuludelta]

As I've said, It's quite challenging to try to guess a models's success in the market place. In the end, it get's down to; "Will the sales support the inventory""? The "why" is investigated for possible future models. The concept explored was to eliminate the "kick" area on the Endura family models without using a finger choil and still bring the edge to the handle on a lock-back.. The "handle forward" concept was an experiment to try to get there in a lock-back folder.

I remember the Rescue models took a much longer time to be accepted than we'd planned for, but in the end, they did survive in the marketplace. Perhaps the Jumpers might have survived, given a longer test period, but in these very highly competitive knife industry times, timing is more critical, and there are more models to test different features.

I'm just glad that the RockJumper got a decent run and grateful that I had the means to purchase both the PE & SE while they were readily available at retail. As a huge proponent of wharncliffe blades in my work context, I remember being really excited when they were revealed. I have a fondness for Spyderco's "wharncliffe everything era". I recall seeing all these new regular production Spyderco wharncliffes being revealed one after another—the wharnie DF2/Delica/Endela/Endura, the Swick 5 & 6, the RockJumper, the Yojumbo, the Canis, the wharnie Manbug—and thinking, "Yes! Now every day can be 'Wharncliffe Wednesday'" LOL

[mikey177]

Two Rockjumpers and two Leafjumpers have made it into my house to date. Seems like a win to me.

[Bolster]

The reasons I didn't buy the 'jumpers were: (1) large handle, was afraid it would be too big in the pocket and (2) other than the nice K390 model, the others were VG10. But I would like to try a handle forward design, I hope there are more in the pipeline.

[Wartstein]

Oh man... only just right now learned that actually ALL the Jumpers got discontinued now - thought it was "only" the RJ in PE and SE, but the LJ only in SE and the Leafjumper PE would remain in the lineup (so that this was more about that wharncliffe blades and serrations did not catch on).

Now that´s sad indeed. Such great knives and concept

Wonder what that means for the Cliffjumper / Sequoia - so basically a larger Leafjumper and thus the "backlock Caribbean" quite some folks (I think) were hoping and waiting for.
Now I fear we won´t see such a model in the nearer future...

[Wartstein]

Personally I wasn't 1:1 shopping Delica:Jumper either, but several comments in this thread have said that they saw the jumper as an improved or enhanced Delica, so the perception seems to be there for some.

Sorry if I sounded as if I´d try to put words you did not say in your mouth, not my intention!

And yes, it is surprising to me how many actually felt as if the Leafjumper was an improved Delica - as said, just for me it clearly belongs in one size category up in most parameters and "competes" there (as said with Endela, Manix, Stretch).

[Wartstein]

As I've said, It's quite challenging to try to guess a models's success in the market place. In the end, it get's down to; "Will the sales support the inventory""? The "why" is investigated for possible future models. The concept explored was to eliminate the "kick" area on the Endura family models without using a finger choil and still bring the edge to the handle on a lock-back.. The "handle forward" concept was an experiment to try to get there in a lock-back folder.

I remember the Rescue models took a much longer time to be accepted than we'd planned for, but in the end, they did survive in the marketplace. Perhaps the Jumpers might have survived, given a longer test period, but in these very highly competitive knife industry times, timing is more critical, and there are more models to test different features.

sal
======================================================================================

"Continual improvement is our evolutionary obligation to humankind".

Sal, it goes without saying that of course I have nowhere near the knowledge and insight into the knife market as you have, but still let me share my layman thoughts on this:

- Sure, the Jumpers served as platforms for exploring how the handle forward concept would be received by the market

- But, in order to do so, people have to be brought to actually buy and try the models

- Now I guess there is a big share of customers who "just" saw that there is a new Spyderco model, but were not or not fully aware that it also offers a new design feature (handle forward concept) or did not care for that concept when not yet having the folder in hand

- Now I think it could be that many just overlooked the Jumpers or found them "boring" cause they were "just" another black, linered FRN Seki models featuring "old" VG10 steel (again, NOT how I feel personally! But I recon a share of the market, sadly influencial youtube "reviewers" and the like do).

- Perhaps it would have helped If there had been a second "exciting" approach that would have served to actually bring the Jumpers in peoples hand in the first place, so that in the process of using the knives they (also) could have discovered the handle forward concept.

- This is why I think that just maybe the approach of offering a brand new, linerless Salt model in a new Salt color (bright orange or whatever, with an all black alternative) could have served as a "vehicle" to actually bring the Jumpers in more peoples hands.

Also, even lighter, totally rustproof and high viz would have emphasized the "climbing, mountaineering, outdoors - vibe" and perhaps helped sales (and most actual mountaineers and climbers would have preferred such features indeed from all I can say).

[ChrisinHove]

If I understand correctly, these were made in FRN (with their expensive moulds) from the outset, as the high cost of making and selling previous models in G10 to prove their concept kept sales at too low a level to make proper judgment.

Perhaps there is a market for an outdoor knife with striking colours and a rust-proof steel, and just black/vg10 also wasn’t it.

[Wartstein]

...
Perhaps there is a market for an outdoor knife with striking colours and a rust-proof steel, and just black/vg10 also wasn’t it.

You pretty much worded in one sentence for what I wasted two posts and 1000 words... (just "linerless and even lighter" is missing in your post)

[horzuff]

Wonder what that means for the Cliffjumper / Sequoia - so basically a larger Leafjumper and thus the "backlock Caribbean" quite some folks (I think) were hoping and waiting for.
Now I fear we won´t see such a model in the nearer future...

Not sure how prevalent my sentiment is in the market as a whole but I feel like the jumpers suffered a bit too much in the blade length department due to the handle forward design and might work a bit better at longer blade lengths as the handle-to-blade proportions should be better.

And I do hope for the Sequoia to get here, I love the overall design od the leafjumper, especially that beautiful blade, but I know such short blades just don't work for me so I never jumped ( ) on it. If it was scaled up length-wise, and especially if the blade thickness stayed the same or decreased, I'd be all over it in any steel apart from VG-10

[dsvirsky]

As I read the comments about how the Leafjumper suffered in the blade length department, I find myself wondering how many realize the Leafjumper enjoys a slightly larger edge (you know, the part that actually does the cutting) to handle ratio than the Endela?

[JSumm]

As I read the comments about how the Leafjumper suffered in the blade length department, I find myself wondering how many realize the Leafjumper enjoys a slightly larger edge (you know, the part that actually does the cutting) to handle ratio than the Endela?

By specs alone, the Endela is slightly larger at the edge which is probably where people are judging it by. I am away from the house, but can take a comparison pic later. The difference is so small I cannot imagine being able to discern the difference in use at all. The only difference I can perceive in use is the Endela has a bit more belly.

As far as comparisons though, the Leaf Jumper in hand feels much more substantial than the Delica, and I would not see them as competing. The Endela size would be a better comparison. In fact, the LJs and RJs have about the same actual grip area as a Military behind the choil.

[mikey177]

The Endela is slightly longer than the Leafjumper, but in actual use I don't perceive a noticeable difference between the two. I could grab either one on the way out to the yard and it wouldn't matter.

Here's a pair of comparison photos, Endela on top.

[elena86]

The SE Rockjumper is a winner in my book. The Leafjumper not so much. I purchased 3 SE RJ and I am a happy camper. Or jumper lol. I only wish they squeezed more edge into that handle.

[Mushroom]

The same people who didn't buy the Rockjumper and/or Leafjumper because they were in VG10, also won't buy the Sequoia and Cliffjumper when those are initially released in VG10. They're also larger knives, which is unfortunately a smaller market than that of even the Rock/Leafjumpers size. Given the relatively short lifespan of the Rock/Leafjumpers, I think it would be wise for Spyderco to very carefully consider whether or not to continue with larger versions of them. (It might be too late for that with how far along the prototypes are though.)

I'm not sure how much of a difference making them a Salt would have made either. The same argument was made for a K390 Leafjumper but barely over a year after its release the k390 version is also being discontinued.

The Rockjumpers rock climbing marketing was just that, marketing. The design itself doesn't intrinsically lends itself towards rock climbing. It can definitely be used for that purpose but I personally think it should've just been marketed as a no-nonsense utilitarian EDC option. I think the "rock climbing" specification alone may have turned people away.

[JSumm]

The same people who didn't buy the Rockjumper and/or Leafjumper because they were in VG10, also won't buy the Sequoia and Cliffjumper when those are initially released in VG10. They're also larger knives, which is unfortunately a smaller market than that of even the Rock/Leafjumpers size. Given the relatively short lifespan of the Rock/Leafjumpers, I think it would be wise for Spyderco to very carefully consider whether or not to continue with larger versions of them. (It might be too late for that with how far along the prototypes are though.)

I'm not sure how much of a difference making them a Salt would have made either. The same argument was made for a K390 Leafjumper but barely over a year after its release the k390 version is also being discontinued.

The Rockjumpers rock climbing marketing was just that, marketing. The design itself doesn't intrinsically lends itself towards rock climbing. It can definitely be used for that purpose but I personally think it should've just been marketed as a no-nonsense utilitarian EDC option. I think the "rock climbing" specification alone may have turned people away.

With the Police 4 available, I do not see much value to Spyderco in the larger options. Selfishly, I hope they take the finger forward concept and apply even just a smidge of that to the Delica/Endela/Endura if they ever to another iteration phasing out the current models.

[Evil D]

I think the answer is really just redundancy more so than outright failure.


Hypothetically, what if the Delica/Endura never existed and both models debuted at the same time? I think the sales would be very different.

I also think what someone said about aftermarket support is very spot on particularly if we compare to the Delica, you can build that knife in 1000 different ways.

But redundancy often weeds out even great models. I'm a huge fan of these knives, but I also found myself not buying the Leaf Jumper because the Bodacious suddenly became an option and suits my tastes even better. Knives aren't getting any cheaper and people have to decide what not to buy too.

I'm still interested in the Sequoia concept, but even then that knife will be competing with my Bodacious and most like other variations of it in the future so the same choice might be made.

It's the downside to having a largerl catalog of great options, they can't all be your #1 seller and even great designs are going to "fail".

[Steeltoez83]

I don't use the index finger choil when I use my spydies. So models like the LJ are just more efficient use of handle real estate. Plus the cutting starts closer to my hand, which gives me a tad more control over the cut. Actual cutting edge and grip is comparable to a manix. Easier to carry, ergos work for my hand, the steel has excellent heat treat, the price before disco was reasonable and frequently on sale. I'm a fan of the LJ and I'd still have my RJ if a coworker didn't bring his homemade long bow to work to show off. I still find a ton of enjoyment of both vg 10 and k390. I never understood the climber aspect of the designs either. I always saw it as a choiless variation of the stretch 2.

[Wartstein]

Screenshot_20241105_113400_Gallery.jpg

... Actual cutting edge and grip is comparable to a manix. ...

Yes, this is what the Jumpers compete with imo (as well as Stretch, Endela...)

For me the Jumper design has pros and cons over something like a Manix (which, indeed, offers about the same grip area on the actual handle and about the same cutting edge length):

- Pro Jumpers:
- As said, same edge length and grip area on the handle, but more compact size

- Closer to the edge while still gripping the beefy, comfy handle (while with the Manix it would have to be the choil then)

Pro Manix (Stretch..)

- Same edge, but longer blade means more reach.
This can be nice in some aspects: Easier to keep the pivot area / the hand away from "gunky" matter that gets cut, a bit better clearance for the hand when cutting on a board, perhaps better for sd (though I know nothing about sd with knives), better in super rare situations when one has to reach stuff that is recessed in some tight space

- TWO good four finger grip options (cause there is the choil): This can be nice in really prolongued use (though normally this is not what one uses a pocket folder for anyway)

[Farmer]

Despite being keen on the handle swell design and no choil, two things put me off this knife. 1) The handle depth and two protruding 'horns' when closed made it look like it could be an uncomfortable pocket carry. 2) The fact it didn't live up to one of its stated objectives which was to have as much cutting edge as possible. Seems like a marketing error to set yourself a goal and then fail to deliver it.