Let's discuss blade tip strength, pros and cons and uses

[Evil D]

Lately I've been carrying one of the new Microtech Ultratechs. It's a nice knife. There's no denying that the lightning-fast clickety-clack of the OTF mechanism is uber cool. But the blade is blunter than to what I'm accustomed. It's not as good. And the steel isn't as good. Some will tell you that it's not better or worse, just different. Nah, it's worse. But that's a topic for another time. The blunter blade might be better for some people and some applications, but I like thin and pointy.

They benefit quite a lot to a lower bevel grind, but it's hard to get around the short height and low blade grind. I like it a lot for casual EDC but it's not something I'd choose to do any extended amount of cutting.




In Spyderco news, I just happened to get a new Vallotton Sub-Hilt today and it fits the discussion so well. These knives are absolute tanks, you could probably hammer the tip through a house brick without damaging it. I love that it's also a hollow grind so it at least slices well up until you wedge it deep into rigid material. I guess it's technically a drop point blade but it's dang near a tanto without the angular belly.

[barnaclesonaboat]

Just another data point/perspective here: I cherish the cutting and piercing performance of the pointy models. PM2, Military 2, Stretch 2 XL... all just offer more "EDC" type utility for me, like when I literally used my 15V M2 to dig a splinter out of my wife's foot last month. Reinforcing my proclivity for these thin/pointy tips is the observation that I have not really broken any of them during all of my varied uses at the house or in the woods whittling up tools/stuff.

But as a funny outlier, I'll add that the only knife tip I've ever broken was on a model most people wouldn't expect: an S110V Native 5 lightweight. I was cutting boxes above a table and zoomed straight through one into the hard melamine table beneath and broke off a few mm. The motion that broke it would probably have broken the tip of any knife I own, but the Native 5 suffered this fate by way of mis-match with the user. I was never comfortable handling the slightly-too-small-for-my-ergonomics Native 5 chassis and regularly cut my hand during opening with it (sold it!), so breaking off the tip in this respect was more about the design of the knife being hard for me to control well vs raw measurements and geometry of the tip.

[Bill1170]

The vast majority of tip damage I have experienced (ie, caused) has been when I drop the knife on a concrete or a tile floor.
It's usually me being clumsy.

Same here. Butterfingers are hard on tips. (No, not the confection, wise guys!) One big advantage of a very lightweight knife is that it carries less energy when dropped, improving survivability.

[Scandi Grind]

I like the Endura tip. The only time I've felt like a thinner tip would be particularly helpful would be on food, but the Endura actually works pretty good for that already. However, I am very much in the "use knives for knife-like tasks only" camp in general, so I am guessing I wouldn't have any problems with a thinner tip either, at least not for a pocket knife. For fixed blades, I probably have a slightly stronger preference towards a stouter tip, but again around Endura level is probably OK.

There is a catagory of knife that I prefer a very strong tip on, but it is only when I consciously enter the realm of overbuilt, which is exactly that, stronger than I need, just for the reassurance (or funness) of having it overbuilt.

[Red Leader]

This is the benefit of having more than one knife on you at a time.

Yes, and it doesn't even have to be at the same time if you have a pretty good idea about what you'll be doing and prepare accordingly.

For my day to day office work I use my k390 df2 wharncliffe. The tip is quite acute, but not super fragile. It's a joy for opening packages with delicate content as it penetrates in a very predictable and controllable way.
On the other end of the spectrum I'm a bit concerned when I yank it under super tight, thick zip ties, but the blade shape is so good for this and it hasn't snapped yet. But maybe the most important aspect of office work that allows me to confidently carry a knife with a delicate tip is the fact that I have easy access to alternative means if I find myself in a situation where I'm pushing the limits of acceptable use for my DF2.

If I'm doing field work, either as part of my job or as a volunteer dog handler in my mountain rescue SAR team, I'm very limited in what I can carry and the tasks I'm up against are less predictable. Non knife tasks are very much on the table and any problem or issue that pops up has to be solved with what I've got. For this type of use I've come to like the modified sheepsfoot blades of the Salt and Pac salt - the robust tip combined with a tough steel makes me very confident that these will stand up to at least some amount of non knife tasks. For mountain rescue it's also a nice bonus that these knives are silly light and somewhat safer if I have to make cuts close to a patient.

There's a time and place for both. A more robust tip is probably more useful overall (as long as it's not too blunt), if you're someone looking for a one knife solution (probably no one here familiar with that concept), but acute tips are nice to have for some niche use (e.g. opening a crinkly bag of chocolate without making noise and alerting the candy monsters aka my kids) and also very satisfying for just nerding out.

Yep, and most days I am out in the field, and unfortunately since I cannot find my SR1 lite right now (have zero clue what happened to it), I have Hultafors GK fixed blade that I can use for the 'silly' tasks and use the Spydies for everything else. Some days the schedule changes rapidly, and we either get called back into the office, or we are in the office and called out on site somewhere, so it is nice being prepared for both situations. If they made an SR1 lite 'mini' I'd be smitten.

[brj]

In my personal use I find that thinner tips are more versatile than thick tips.
Whether it be poking a hole in something, opening packages, lifting a tab on a can, whittling, removing a splinter or cutting open something tight like zip-ties, a thin tip shines over a thick tip.
I have been fortunate enough to have not broken a tip yet.

+1 here
I am currently opening most of my packages (of reasonable size) with a 58mm Vic, works perfectly with very minimal maintenance.

[Evil D]

I'll definitely agree with opening blister packages, thinner is better. This is one task that I'd honestly rather just use a razor utility knife than my pocket knife.

[vivi]

So the question for this thread is, what exactly are you gaining from a thin/acute blade tip?

Let me answer your question with another question.

What exactly are you gaining from thin / acute edge geometry in general?

efficiency.

Why don't I EDC an axe and poke holes in things with it?

A knife works better.

If my catcherman, chief and military 2 can poke holes in things without failing, why would I want a thicker tip?

There's no advantage to me having a thicker tip if the thin tips I use work fine without failing.

There's no advantage to me using the thick factory edge geometry knives ship with if my ~10dps edge I put on every knife holds up fine.

You tell me what exactly you're doing to break knife tips and I can tell you what exactly you're doing your knife wasn't meant for.

I can rock the same philips screwdriver on a multitool for a decade too. *shrug*

[vivi]

My Delica 4s are about as thin a tip as I like on a general use folder. I was actually in favor of the tip of the Delica 4 over the previous versions. The old "splinter tip" was very pokey compared to the 4, but less forgiving if you abused it. I think (it was a long time ago) it was a SE Delica 1 that I snapped a small bit of the tip off while working EMS. As I recall I simply reground the tip into something similar to the current Delica 4.

Most of the piercing use of my knives in recent years has been on hikes & camping trips. Probably the roughest use was whittling some camp gadgets. Crafting an alcohol soda can stove requires you to poke holes in a soda can and pierce it to cut it into separate pieces. I've also used a knife to make a hobo stove using a tin can. That will definitely test the tip, and the edge of a knife.

cans are extremely soft and easy to puncture with a knife. I've made alcohol stoves with opinels with no issue, and my recon folder still shaves after piercing multiple cans of EVOO for food production.

[vivi]

The vast majority of tip damage I have experienced (ie, caused) has been when I drop the knife on a concrete or a tile floor.

I can't recall dropping any type of knife that's open since I joined the forum.

[Evil D]

So the question for this thread is, what exactly are you gaining from a thin/acute blade tip?

Let me answer your question with another question.

What exactly are you gaining from thin / acute edge geometry in general?

efficiency.

Why don't I EDC an axe and poke holes in things with it?

A knife works better.

If my catcherman, chief and military 2 can poke holes in things without failing, why would I want a thicker tip?

There's no advantage to me having a thicker tip if the thin tips I use work fine without failing.

There's no advantage to me using the thick factory edge geometry knives ship with if my ~10dps edge I put on every knife holds up fine.

You tell me what exactly you're doing to break knife tips and I can tell you what exactly you're doing your knife wasn't meant for.

I can rock the same philips screwdriver on a multitool for a decade too. *shrug*

Well like I openly admitted much of it is hypothetical, it's been so long since I broke a blade tip I don't even remember the last time. I guess the answer is I don't find myself using them and wishing they were thinner, so maybe I'm just ignorant of the average performance I'm getting?

As for screws, I most likely just use them way more than you do at you job, the same as I don't do anywhere near the amount of food prep you do. Even at home I almost never reach for an actual screwdriver. But even this is a topic where I've had a problem one time and I take actions to prevent it from happening again. I had to build 95 steel stockroom shelves, each of which had about 60 screws that had nuts on the end that were impacted on, and that job destroy a Philips driver on my Vic Spirit. Will I need to do that again? Probably not, but I now have a solution if I ever have a wore out driver.

I wear steel toes almost 7 days a week too. I guess I'm just an overcompensater.

[cjk]

The vast majority of tip damage I have experienced (ie, caused) has been when I drop the knife on a concrete or a tile floor.

I can't recall dropping any type of knife that's open since I joined the forum.

Did you drop open knives before joining the forum?

I don't usually drop an open knife, but have knocked a couple off something else after I set them down.
For most of the clumsy drops where tip damage is incurred, the knife is closed and comes open due to the impact, then damage is from bouncing or sliding. Carrying mostly lockbacks instead minimizes the damage because they usually don't come open. It doesn't happen very often.

[vivi]

The vast majority of tip damage I have experienced (ie, caused) has been when I drop the knife on a concrete or a tile floor.

I can't recall dropping any type of knife that's open since I joined the forum.

Did you drop open knives before joining the forum?

I don't usually drop an open knife, but have knocked a couple off something else after I set them down.
For most of the clumsy drops where tip damage is incurred, the knife is closed and comes open due to the impact, then damage is from bouncing or sliding. Carrying mostly lockbacks instead minimizes the damage because they usually don't come open. It doesn't happen very often.

Nope.

I rarely set my knives down so I don't knock them off of things or lose them frequently either.

[DrHarmony]

The finest tips I own are accompanied by amazing geometry like the Watu and the Chaparral. I love the way these two knives handle my fruit at lunch so much I often get the urge to throw some in the air and go fruit ninja crazy.
I have a dual ground knife that does have a thicker tip than the main cutting area and I find tip does not get used much at all. I end up using the transition of the tanto blade instead of the tip to pierce packaging.

[vivi]

So the question for this thread is, what exactly are you gaining from a thin/acute blade tip?

Let me answer your question with another question.

What exactly are you gaining from thin / acute edge geometry in general?

efficiency.

Why don't I EDC an axe and poke holes in things with it?

A knife works better.

If my catcherman, chief and military 2 can poke holes in things without failing, why would I want a thicker tip?

There's no advantage to me having a thicker tip if the thin tips I use work fine without failing.

There's no advantage to me using the thick factory edge geometry knives ship with if my ~10dps edge I put on every knife holds up fine.

You tell me what exactly you're doing to break knife tips and I can tell you what exactly you're doing your knife wasn't meant for.

I can rock the same philips screwdriver on a multitool for a decade too. *shrug*

Well like I openly admitted much of it is hypothetical, it's been so long since I broke a blade tip I don't even remember the last time. I guess the answer is I don't find myself using them and wishing they were thinner, so maybe I'm just ignorant of the average performance I'm getting?

I guess I'm a little confused as to what answer you expect.

Knives cut things. Thinner knives cut things with less effort. This is true for both edges and tips.

The "thinly tipped" knives you, wartstein and others fret over have never failed me after using them for 25+ years.

I've never broken a tip off a Police, Opinel, Swiss Army Knife, chef knives, Native Chiefs, Military 1 or 2 etc.

Why don't you sharpen your knives at 50 degrees per side? They could still cut the things you use your pocket knives for.

Easy. Because it's a less efficient edge angle than 20 degrees per side, or whatever you personally sharpen at.

There's no real mystery here, except why other people aren't interested in figuring out the limits of things.

I bought a Cold Steel 4 Max. It's an awesome knife. Great action, well made, some of the best ergonomics of any folders I own.

But I also never carry it.

Why?

Becauwe the Cold Steel Recon does 99% of the things I use pocket knives for better.

That extra 1.5-2mm of steel stock resulting in a thicker edge and tip does not benefit me at all unless I want to chop wood with a folding knife. Which is a very rare circumstance to find myself in.

So I carry the Recon instead of the 4 max because I find it more efficient.

If I handed most people a factory edged Victorinox chef knife they'd think it's the sharpest kitchen knife they've ever used.

If they tried my aogami super 10" gyuto I just used at work, well, most folks that have tried it are literally afraid of how easily it cuts.

It's all relative.

If you're used to 30 degree per side edges my 10 degree per side edges my sound like insanity.

But my edges angles (and my tip preferences) are based on real world data - data on when things fail.

I've brought many knife edges to the point they were too thin and they started to fail. So I know how thin I can run a knife edge and still be fine.

Most people don't do this. They just guess or go with the factory edge.

I guess I'm just curious in that way. I also had to find out how many hours I could skateboard before my body stops working, how many miles I can bike in a day before my legs stop working, etc.



It's all about efficiency. Why use a thicker edge or tip than I have to and make myself work harder? It'd be like going to work with ankle weights on.

[vivi]

ps you may be surprised how often leathermans get used in restaurants. I use the philips every day to break down the pizza oven for cleaning.

[Scandi Grind]

I think a lot of people don't want to have to think too carefully about how they are using their knife, so a little bit of efficiency just doesn't mean as much to them as knowing it won't break when they go to do something. Everybody uses their knives a bit differently, and sometimes more durability is helpful. Most of my family probably runs some risk of damaging the edges on my kitchen knives because they are used to using more rough technique needed for thicker, less sharp knives. I don't think they necessarily have to get into the realm of abuse to cause damage either. Would it be fine with different technique? Yeah, but some people just don't have any interest in getting the edge as thin as possible, and using the technique required to take advantage of that edge. Same with tips. The kitchen knife I let my family use is a Chinese Cleaver. It doesn't have a tip to damage like my gyuto.

[Scandi Grind]

Double Post.