Sal vs The Mastiff

[The Mastiff]

There are some steels with high cobalt in that class that will go up to rc 68-69. Z max, PM 60 and more. Lots of monstrous steels out there. The high hardness ones are typically in the high speed/red hardness class.

[Ankerson]

There are some steels with high cobalt in that class that will go up to rc 68-69. Z max, PM 60 and more. Lots of monstrous steels out there. The high hardness ones are typically in the high speed/red hardness class.

Yep, there is a good variety of them around and they excel in what they were developed for, high speed red hardness class....

But take them out of that type of use and start making knife blades out of them and they don't do as well as the alloy content would suggest or some would think. :)

[Paulsmp]

All Maxamet really was ment to do was be the hot work steel equivalent of A11 that's a cold work steel as far as wear resistance is concerned.

I suppose they needed A11 level of wear resistance in a hot work environment so the alloy content was balanced for that type of use.

So from Carpenters own literature the wear resistance is the same as A11...

While the alloy content is high, it's doesn't develop the right type of carbides to overcome the high percentage of Vanadium that is in the A11 class of steels as Maxamet has 6% Vanadium compared to the A11 Class at 10%....

That's the reason why Carpenters literature says what it does.

So that's something to think about when going outside the intended use of steels and using them in knife blades.

Thinking of steel designed for a hot environment, could i Hope this is finally the Steel/knife i could put in the dishwasher without harming the blade????

[Jax]

I would think Maxamet wouldn't be a good steel for being dishwasher safe.
I would hate to see the dishwasher that ran hot enough to blow the temper of a blade steel :)
So heat isn't the issue here.
It's corrosion,Maxamet only has a little bit of chromium,and gobs of carbon.
The dishwasher detergent would probably do a number on this steel (rust/pitting).

[ManixFan]

Thinking of steel designed for a hot environment, could i Hope this is finally the Steel/knife i could put in the dishwasher without harming the blade????

If someone put a knife in me while I was washing dishes I would be pressing charges but I don't think the blade would be harmed. :rolleyes:

Ohhhh. wait a minute, now I know what you meant......sorry, I'm a little slow some days. :D

[rescueseven]

If someone put a knife in me while I was washing dishes... :rolleyes: :D

thanks.
I needed a laugh.

Ian

[The Mastiff]

If someone put a knife in me while I was washing dishes I would be pressing charges but I don't think the blade would be harmed.

Heh!

Yep, there is a good variety of them around and they excel in what they were developed for, high speed red hardness class....

But take them out of that type of use and start making knife blades out of them and they don't do as well as the alloy content would suggest or some would think.

You have more experience with true "super" steel class knives than I do but my experience with steels agrees with your position. If you need to get thicker edges and higher angles to keep the edge from chipping out there is no real gain in performance.

If there are going to be better combinations of wear, strength, toughness etc. than the S110V and A11 class then I don't know where it will be. I did enough work with S125V to satisfy myself that it wasn't "better" despite looking better on paper. Of course one could argue that the two different heat treats/hardness's aren't enough to judge and I think they would be right. Another point is do I really need greater wear resistance than that class steel? I'm more interested in better balance not just huge numbers in one attribute. S110V/10V/K390/K294 and such when done properly have a better balance than the higher carbide steels I've tried personally. Namely S125V and Rex 20/M62.

Strider just came out with a batch of folders in Zapp Z max at a claimed rc 68-69 so we will eventually hear about that steel. I've never worked with the really high cobalt steels so I'm interested but to be honest I'd rather spend my money on the upcoming K2 Folder in 10V. That is a known steel with no real surprises. If I'm spending the big bucks I like the idea of knowing what I'm getting. When I experiment that's for lower cost items which is exactly why the Mule team program exists.

Joe

[MacLaren]

Guys, will the K2 be a production folder?
I didn't see it in the 2014 catalog.

[Ankerson]

Heh!



You have more experience with true "super" steel class knives than I do but my experience with steels agrees with your position. If you need to get thicker edges and higher angles to keep the edge from chipping out there is no real gain in performance.

If there are going to be better combinations of wear, strength, toughness etc. than the S110V and A11 class then I don't know where it will be. I did enough work with S125V to satisfy myself that it wasn't "better" despite looking better on paper. Of course one could argue that the two different heat treats/hardness's aren't enough to judge and I think they would be right. Another point is do I really need greater wear resistance than that class steel? I'm more interested in better balance not just huge numbers in one attribute. S110V/10V/K390/K294 and such when done properly have a better balance than the higher carbide steels I've tried personally. Namely S125V and Rex 20/M62.

Strider just came out with a batch of folders in Zapp Z max at a claimed rc 68-69 so we will eventually hear about that steel. I've never worked with the really high cobalt steels so I'm interested but to be honest I'd rather spend my money on the upcoming K2 Folder in 10V. That is a known steel with no real surprises. If I'm spending the big bucks I like the idea of knowing what I'm getting. When I experiment that's for lower cost items which is exactly why the Mule team program exists.

Joe

Joe,

I don't really see anything really being more balanced for knife blades than the A11 Class steels as they are much tougher and stronger than most people would believe and some other would have people believe.

In time that reality will become more apparent. :)

Jim

[rescueseven]

I'm in-
I will donate $50 to the Weld Food Bank in the name of Spyderco if Sal wins or in Joe's name if The Mastiff wins.

Feel free to pick your favorite charity and pledge an amount.

Ian

As promised-

[Mjc1973]

Love it. Beautiful sentiment.

[PayneTrain]

A gentleman indeed. I actually just dropped off on Tuesday part of the donation I mentioned. Thank you guys for reminding us to take time to do something for someone else.

[The Mastiff]

Thanks Ian for the food bank donation. That is another good one and really helps those in need. A class act and it says much about you.

Donate

Confirmation
Your Confirmation Information

08/01/2014 08:16 AM (PT)
Children's Hospital Colorado Foundation

XXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
raleigh , CO 27612
United States



The following summarizes your contribution:
Payment Amount: $100.00
Reference ID: 168886938


Children's Hospital Colorado Foundation contact information:
Email Address: info@childrenscoloradofoundation.org

Note: I donated for/from
Sal Glesser at
Spyderco, Inc.
820 Spyderco Way
Golden CO 80403





Joe

[The Mastiff]

By the way I know there are a lot of you here that give to other charities, churches, volunteer time and help out your communities in many ways quietly and without posting it on the forums. :)

That is just the kind of people that frequent Spyderco forums.

Remembering this sort of thing helps me on days when I end up reading too many news stories and begin feeling cynical.

Thanks everybody for everything you do.

Joe and Finn ( the real mastiff)

[xceptnl]

Terrific showing of humanity here from Joe as well as Ian. Cheers to both of you fine individuals!

[Cliff Stamp]

The dishwasher detergent would probably do a number on this steel (rust/pitting).

Indeed, even in cases where the knives are ok, few people would advocate using the steel in applications like that because the heat, humidity and cleaning agents can destroy glues.

As a note about Maxamet vs A11 and a few actual facts :

-the steels can not be equated simply because of a line in a data sheet which notes wear resistance levels
-again, data sheets are marketing using them for steel information is like using McDonald's promotional material to judge the health/caloric intake of foods vs actual journal published data


Wear resistance is measured by many different ways, you have to know if it is adhesive or abrasive and if it was abrasive what size particle was used as the grinding agent and how much load was applied, all of these change what the tests mean and the performance of steels can actually reverse if the size of the grinding abrasive changes. This is why the shock steels can even have higher abrasion resistance than high carbide steels if the loads are high because the abrasive not only grinds then it also can produce fracture.

Maxamet has a much higher maximum hardness than A11 by a lot, if you are going to ignore the difference between 70 HRC and 65 HRC then you can't get that overly excited about 65 HRC vs 60 HRC. As well a lot of the carbide in Maxamet will comes from the very heavy secondary precipitation which produces completely different carbides than the primary Vanadium carbides in A11. This and many other reasons are why steels like D2 and M2 behave very differently in sharpness/edge retention even though in some wear tests they are equal (abrasive, low load - M2 is much higher in adhesive wear).

Note D2 and 3V have similar wear resistance as well (depending on how it is measured) would anyone say they are equivalent or even in the same class as blade steels?

[rescueseven]

Thank you all for your kind words!

Joe, it seems to me you started this whole thing and I certainly enjoyed playing along. Your sentiments about the quality of folk in these parts is spot on! We can go many places to talk knives, but none have the civility that permeates these threads. It is very nice to be among so many respectful people!

Thanks again,
Ian