Sal vs The Mastiff

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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rescueseven
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Sal vs The Mastiff

#1

Post by rescueseven »

I didn't want to hijack the casual bomb shell thread so here is a new thread.

The below exchange got started on the Sal's Casual Bombshell Thread.

sal wrote:... I believe the next mule is finished and we're waiting to run with it. It's a new steel that to my knowledge has not been used before.

sal
The Mastiff wrote:This is interesting. Not many knife eligible steels haven't been used yet by someone. I'm looking forward to it. If I can guess in one try i get a free one? If I miss I donate $100 to the Childrens hospital in Spyderco's name?

:)

They are good people and a worthy cause to be honest. I'm donating next month anyway so I wasn't really serious.They get theirs no matter what. I am curious though about this mule. That I am serious about :)

Joe
ManixFan wrote:So what's your guess? I have no clue what it might be and am curious. Even if you guess wrong then perhaps your "guess" might be on the radar and up for consideration in a future release?
The Mastiff wrote:Don't wanna say right now. :)
sal wrote:You're on Joe. One shot.

sal
xceptnl wrote:This should be good. I'm pulling for you Joe.
I'm in-
I will donate $50 to the Weld Food Bank in the name of Spyderco if Sal wins or in Joe's name if The Mastiff wins.

Feel free to pick your favorite charity and pledge an amount.

Ian
"Don't tempt me, I'll do a sprint run of it!" -Eric
"We've been working on this design for 10 years, unsuccessfully." -Sal
WTC #1398 Bless their souls
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#2

Post by ManixFan »

Yup, definitely a Win-Win! ;)
Estne Spyderco in toga, an solum tibi libet me videre? :eek:
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#3

Post by GoldenSpydie »

ManixFan wrote:Wow, "one shot" is usually never a Win-Win situation. I think an Angel just got their wings. :D
The Mastiff wrote:OK Sal, I'll give it my best shot. A new, fine grained CTS steel called BDZ1
http://www.cartech.com/ssalloysprod.aspx?id=4395

Carpenter has been on a roll and has given us some good steels. We'll see. Thanks Sal.

Joe
The Mastiff wrote:Thanks Landon. Also, thanks Maxi fan. Rescue7 very well done! thank you very much! They do great work there and help a lot of children that need help. That's about as worthy a cause as I know of. They are really nice to deal with too. They are big on research and I hope they go very far on new treatments and processes. Only giving money isn't much compared to actually working with sick children. It's the least I can do. Salute!

My next guess would be the powder 440C. CTS 40CP or something like that? I don't know why I think it's a CTS steel but that is what I'm coming up with.

Joe
an update
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rescueseven
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#4

Post by rescueseven »

GoldenSpydie wrote:an update
Cool. Just waiting on Sal to see how to make out the check.

R7
"Don't tempt me, I'll do a sprint run of it!" -Eric
"We've been working on this design for 10 years, unsuccessfully." -Sal
WTC #1398 Bless their souls
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#5

Post by Ferris Wheels »

I think this could be an excellent way to do an upcoming Mule team. We all know that the Maxamet mule team is going to be hotter then any mule team before it so why not solve the problem with flippers and do some good at the same time.

Here is my idea. Spyderco will have a fixed cost into the Maxamet mule, what if they took that fixed cost doubled it or maybe even triple it with the additional proceeds over Spyderco's cost going to a charity of Spyderco's choice. The increased price will deter the flippers but not be so high it slows down the sales and the proceeds will go to what is sure to be an excellent cause.

What do you think Sal? Can we add charitable contribution into the Mule team?
Current :spyder: : Para2's Brown, Blue & Orange, Etched Spin, CF Caly3 ZDP189, Gayle Bradley, UKPK Orange G10, Manix2 M4, Sage 1, Caly 3.5 in Super Blue, Urban Orange G10
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#6

Post by xceptnl »

Ferris Wheels wrote:I think this could be an excellent way to do an upcoming Mule team. We all know that the Maxamet mule team is going to be hotter then any mule team before it so why not solve the problem with flippers and do some good at the same time.

Here is my idea. Spyderco will have a fixed cost into the Maxamet mule, what if they took that fixed cost doubled it or maybe even triple it with the additional proceeds over Spyderco's cost going to a charity of Spyderco's choice. The increased price will deter the flippers but not be so high it slows down the sales and the proceeds will go to what is sure to be an excellent cause.

What do you think Sal? Can we add charitable contribution into the Mule team?
I am interested in hearing more about this idea.
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sal wrote: .... even today, we design a knife from the edge out!
*Landon*
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#7

Post by ManixFan »

Ferris Wheels wrote:I think this could be an excellent way to do an upcoming Mule team. We all know that the Maxamet mule team is going to be hotter then any mule team before it so why not solve the problem with flippers and do some good at the same time.
I don't think you will ever solve the problem of flippers. Higher initial costs for everyone will just raise the price of the mules on the secondary market that much more and also reduce the number of people actually purchasing in the first place - which would be a sad thing.

You may also alienate those who don't want to feel pressured into any charitable donation attached to a knife purchase that doubles the price of that purchase. It is good to raise awareness of those less fortunate than yourself to which a knife purchase would seem a frivolous thing as they are too busy trying to survive let alone thinking of getting their next shiny new object in their lives. A lot of the big charities also have large overheads and although they do good work there is a balance between money spent marketing their worthy cause and paying the people to promote them and then actually getting funds to the people in need.

Since I have been a sort of clueless bystander in the original thread that has led to this worthy "gentleman's bet" as well as RescueSeven's very worthy efforts in beginning this thread - which coincidentally occurred at the exact time that I was responding to the bombshell thread then in the positive spirit of things I will also pledge to contribute to a cause in my own backyard.

I rarely give to organized charities but I will occasionally pass on a few dollars to the local homeless in my area. So to that end I pledge a $20 assistance paid out within the next week to the next few homeless people that ask for assistance. I may split it up as a small $5 contribution to 4 people or perhaps the full $20 to the first person I see who looks like they need help.......whatever my gut instinct tells me to do.

I don't receive or need a tax receipt and usually no one will ever know about such a contribution but sometimes noticing those less fortunate around you and buying a lunch for someone who is hungry can make you appreciate the blessings in your own life that allow you to go out and satisfy the "wants" in your lives (like your 20th Spyderco) since your own "needs" have already been met (the rent/mortgage is paid, there is food in your fridge and in your dog's bowl).

Just my 5 cents worth.

BTW Rescueseven.....nice thread, how are those wings feeling? ;)
Estne Spyderco in toga, an solum tibi libet me videre? :eek:
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#8

Post by MacLaren »

I agree with ManixFan.
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#9

Post by rescueseven »

ManixFan wrote:
Just my 5 cents worth.

BTW Rescueseven.....nice thread, how are those wings feeling? ;)
Thank you sir.

I appreciate the commitment and the complement.

Ian
"Don't tempt me, I'll do a sprint run of it!" -Eric
"We've been working on this design for 10 years, unsuccessfully." -Sal
WTC #1398 Bless their souls
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#10

Post by The Mastiff »

Being forced to volunteer isn't the idea behind donating money to a charity IMO. Too much like being married, or in the army. :) Anybody who does it should want to . :)
"A Mastiff is to a dog what a Lion is to a housecat. He stands alone and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race" Cynographia Britannic 1800


"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
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rescueseven
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#11

Post by rescueseven »

The Mastiff wrote:Too much like being married, or in the army. :)
Been there, done that.
More than 20 years with each.
Fortunately the Army and I have parted ways.
Fortunately the wife and I have not.

Ian
"Don't tempt me, I'll do a sprint run of it!" -Eric
"We've been working on this design for 10 years, unsuccessfully." -Sal
WTC #1398 Bless their souls
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#12

Post by PayneTrain »

Really cool of you guys! I couldn't think of an easy way to get in on this, but it did remind me that I've been meaning to help out the dog rescue where my pup came from, and I've finally organized a little something. I just hope I leave myself enough money for this mule!
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#13

Post by rescueseven »

PayneTrain wrote:... help out the dog rescue where my pup came from...
Thank you!
The pups and I appreciate your commitment!

Ian
"Don't tempt me, I'll do a sprint run of it!" -Eric
"We've been working on this design for 10 years, unsuccessfully." -Sal
WTC #1398 Bless their souls
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#14

Post by salimoneus »

Ferris Wheels wrote:I think this could be an excellent way to do an upcoming Mule team. We all know that the Maxamet mule team is going to be hotter then any mule team before it so why not solve the problem with flippers and do some good at the same time.

Here is my idea. Spyderco will have a fixed cost into the Maxamet mule, what if they took that fixed cost doubled it or maybe even triple it with the additional proceeds over Spyderco's cost going to a charity of Spyderco's choice. The increased price will deter the flippers but not be so high it slows down the sales and the proceeds will go to what is sure to be an excellent cause.

What do you think Sal? Can we add charitable contribution into the Mule team?
Unless this knife is somehow related to a charitable foundation, or in dedication to someone or some cause, adding in a mandatory charitable contribution to the price is probably not a good idea. If Spyderco wants to donate a percentage of the normal sales, it is certainly in their right to do so, but they should not be in the business of dictating which charities people donate to, or even that someone should donate above and beyond what they may have already donated for the year.

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly a supporter of several charitable and non profit organizations, I just think that decisions involving the donation of time and money are better left to the individuals themselves.
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#15

Post by sal »

We probably wouldn't do that with a Mule Team as we're trying to get the "piece of steel" to the customer at a cost effective price. Also, Maxamet is 3 times more expensive that any other boutique steel, so it will be expensive anyway.

sal
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#16

Post by xceptnl »

sal wrote:We probably wouldn't do that with a Mule Team as we're trying to get the "piece of steel" to the customer at a cost effective price. Also, Maxamet is 3 times more expensive that any other boutique steel, so it will be expensive anyway.

sal
Is the CTS-BD4P something you have considered for Mule or Production?
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sal wrote: .... even today, we design a knife from the edge out!
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#17

Post by Ankerson »

sal wrote:We probably wouldn't do that with a Mule Team as we're trying to get the "piece of steel" to the customer at a cost effective price. Also, Maxamet is 3 times more expensive that any other boutique steel, so it will be expensive anyway.

sal
Hi Sal,

Sounds about right, I think you would be better off doing one in CPM 10V (A11) at Max hardness (65 RC) as that would give about the same performance as Maxamet as per Carpenters own datasheet. 3X the cost for the same level of performance doesn't make since for a knife blade. :)

Or go off the radar and over the top and use CPM 15V or CPM S125V, either at high hardness around the 64-65 RC mark.... :eek:

But that's just my opinion....
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#18

Post by Ankerson »

All Maxamet really was ment to do was be the hot work steel equivalent of A11 that's a cold work steel as far as wear resistance is concerned.

I suppose they needed A11 level of wear resistance in a hot work environment so the alloy content was balanced for that type of use.

So from Carpenters own literature the wear resistance is the same as A11...

While the alloy content is high, it's doesn't develop the right type of carbides to overcome the high percentage of Vanadium that is in the A11 class of steels as Maxamet has 6% Vanadium compared to the A11 Class at 10%....

That's the reason why Carpenters literature says what it does.

So that's something to think about when going outside the intended use of steels and using them in knife blades.
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#19

Post by paladin »

Ankerson wrote:All Maxamet really was ment to do was be the hot work steel equivalent of A11 that's a cold work steel as far as wear resistance is concerned.

I suppose they needed A11 level of wear resistance in a hot work environment so the alloy content was balanced for that type of use.

So from Carpenters own literature the wear resistance is the same as A11...

While the alloy content is high, it's doesn't develop the right type of carbides to overcome the high percentage of Vanadium that is in the A11 class of steels as Maxamet has 6% Vanadium compared to the A11 Class at 10%....

That's the reason why Carpenters literature says what it does.

So that's something to think about when going outside the intended use of steels and using them in knife blades.
Well said!
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#20

Post by Ankerson »

paladin wrote:Well said!
I figured I would put some reality into the Maxamet thing as some seem to think it's going to be this miracle steel when it's really not...

Those with the K390 Mules will see about the same level of performance out of Maxamet and if they bought into the hype they are going to be disappointed if they are expecting a big difference because they aren't going to get it...

While it should be an interesting steel to add to the Mule Team collection I wouldn't expect it to move mountains because it's just not going to happen.

So I really hope they don't buy into the hype that was created by some that don't fully understand what the different alloys do and what Maxamet was developed for in the 1st place.

So if Spyderco does actually use it in a Mule Team I will either buy one or someone will likely send me one to test and see what it will really do when compared to the other steels and knives with like geometry.

I still think A11 would be a better choice though as I have heard that certain makes of A11 can be run up into the 67 RC range with great results... And it's not even near the cost of Maxamet....
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