Golden Age of Supersteels Over???

[cabfrank]

On that note, I personally feel Spyderco nailed the holy grail of combinations when it serrated H1 and put it in a liner-less FRN handle.

No argument here.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

On that note, I personally feel Spyderco nailed the holy grail of combinations when it serrated H1 and put it in a liner-less FRN handle.

No argument here.

I agree. Serrated H1 steel in linerless FRN is a grail peak of knives.

[zhyla]

Sal, here is an idea, what if someone in a metallurgical lab combines H2 or MagnaCut with molecular level carbon rods arranged in tetrahedral diamond pattern. Using an Atomic Force Microscope. It may yield a new, upgraded alloy.

You know so many people, I’m sure one of them has an atomic force microscope they can loan you.

Though surely you know how to use one.
Right?
Of course.
Lots of
Luck.

[RustyIron]

Truth be told, I'm more concerned about AI destroying innovation, inventors and designers. Yes, we, (Gail, Eric and I) are business people, but we are also creative, which is harder to find, learn and teach. in 20 years, AI will get the credit. Sal & Eric who?

Hasn't the line already been so far blurred as to have lost meaning? I'm carrying a knife today has the name "Sal" on it. But I doubt Sal ever touched or even laid eyes on this knife. If it was fifty years ago, he would have scribbled out some drawings on a sheet of paper, taken measurements with analog tools, cut out the blank with a saw, shaped it on a grinder, and finished it with files and emery cloth.

Nowadays, the knife is drawn out on a color display and the computer figures out the details. The knife is "made" by some guy in the factory, but he's not cutting out blanks with a saw and grinder. He loads a sheet of steel into a machine and pushes a button. Knife blades come pouring out the other end.

I think you can see where I'm going with this. The new technology will be a tool to help us do things better in ways we cannot yet imagine. While those Spyderco knives from fifty years ago might have been good for the time, those made today by the thousands in fancy automated factories are orders of magnitude better. If I can only have one knife that has to perform all my cutting chores, make it the one made by Mister Anonymous in the factory.

Writing: Socrates feared writing would breed forgetfulness and destroy our memory.

Printing Press: The Church feared the printed word would spread dangerous ideas and undermine intellectual authority.

Photography: Painters feared machines would replace true artistic soul.

Calculator: Educators feared students would lose the ability to understand real mathematics.

History has proven that advancements in technology have not destroyed our humanity. They've redefined it and helped us achieved excellence not previously imagined.

[silver & black]

Truth be told, I'm more concerned about AI destroying innovation, inventors and designers. Yes, we, (Gail, Eric and I) are business people, but we are also creative, which is harder to find, learn and teach. in 20 years, AI will get the credit. Sal & Eric who?

Hasn't the line already been so far blurred as to have lost meaning? I'm carrying a knife today has the name "Sal" on it. But I doubt Sal ever touched or even laid eyes on this knife. If it was fifty years ago, he would have scribbled out some drawings on a sheet of paper, taken measurements with analog tools, cut out the blank with a saw, shaped it on a grinder, and finished it with files and emery cloth.

Nowadays, the knife is drawn out on a color display and the computer figures out the details. The knife is "made" by some guy in the factory, but he's not cutting out blanks with a saw and grinder. He loads a sheet of steel into a machine and pushes a button. Knife blades come pouring out the other end.

I think you can see where I'm going with this. The new technology will be a tool to help us do things better in ways we cannot yet imagine. While those Spyderco knives from fifty years ago might have been good for the time, those made today by the thousands in fancy automated factories are orders of magnitude better. If I can only have one knife that has to perform all my cutting chores, make it the one made by Mister Anonymous in the factory.

Writing: Socrates feared writing would breed forgetfulness and destroy our memory.

Printing Press: The Church feared the printed word would spread dangerous ideas and undermine intellectual authority.

Photography: Painters feared machines would replace true artistic soul.

Calculator: Educators feared students would lose the ability to understand real mathematics.

History has proven that advancements in technology have not destroyed our humanity. They've redefined it and helped us achieved excellence not previously imagined.

That's an intersting take, and I agree with most of it. But........... I can also see the perspective of AI/tech subduing creativity. As with most things, AI can be used for good or not so good. All you have to do is look on YouTube at all the AI generated nonsense that is becoming more prevelent every day. My personal opinion of AI is that it is a double edge sword. It could be a boon to humanity or... quite the opposite, depending on the user/s.

I'm a furniture maker/restorer. I use many hand tools, machiness and skills honed over a lifetime in the trade. I have worked in shops that have gone to CNC technology in oredr to keep up and be profitabe. I love the CNC tech..... it keeps me from taking a lot of time to make/cut out parts that the CNC does in a matter of minutes.... and they are perfect. The downside to that is that I see less skill and knowledge of how to do things that us older guys had to learn over years of doing. Granted, it's another type of skill to program the CNC for whatever task.... a skill I don't have.

At the end of the day, it's always going to be a trade off between technology and human creativeness. I don't think there is a correct answer to the dilema.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

The Ray Kurzweils and Elon Musks claim their goal is to somehow combine the knife making and design genius of folks like sal and Al Mar and Bob Lum, with the precision of atomic force CNC machines and quantum computers, so we can all make supersteel.

[awa54]

..........
The first commercial stainless steel was 420. The patent for the steel is titled, “Cutlery.” Not even alloy for cutlery but just “Cutlery.” That steel was invented around 1912. Early stainless steels were all associated with knives. https://patents.google.com/patent/US1197256A/

If we go back further than this there were simple carbon steels optimized for knives and all as “cutlery steel” in the late 1800s. Those were the same as other carbon steels but in the carbon range the manufacturers wanted and the right dimensions, etc.

But if we go back to the beginnings of steel you could argue the very earliest steels were made for knives and swords. There is no first knife steel. The first steel was knife steel.

When I was first getting into knives around 2001 they released S30V and it was being promoted as the first steel designed for knives. I guess the claims will never end.

I'd heard in several places (internet and IRL) that Sandvik created 12C27 specifically as a steel for scissors and knives.

[awa54]

..........

Truth be told, I'm more concerned about AI destroying innovation, inventors and designers. Yes, we, (Gail, Eric and I) are business people, but we are also creative, which is harder to find, learn and teach. in 20 years, AI will get the credit. Sal & Eric who?

sal

I too worry about how many of us humans are excited by the prospect of resigning our agency in guiding our own endeavors to *any* outside source, let alone a blatantly flawed software black-box like the current crop of LLMs.

Intellectual laziness and a shift toward valuing cheap/easy over innovative and excellent design (as well as education, management, and other disciplines), is a sign of very bad things to come IMO.

The best we can hope for, if we as a species buy in to AI as a replacement for our own intellect is stagnation and a lowering of overall competence in humanity, the worst we might are things from the realm of dystopian fiction.

[awa54]

.......

Writing: Socrates feared writing would breed forgetfulness and destroy our memory.

Printing Press: The Church feared the printed word would spread dangerous ideas and undermine intellectual authority.

Photography: Painters feared machines would replace true artistic soul.

Calculator: Educators feared students would lose the ability to understand real mathematics.

History has proven that advancements in technology have not destroyed our humanity. They've redefined it and helped us achieved excellence not previously imagined.

To some extent, all of the innovations you mention *did* do the anticipated damage the naysayers feared.
Society changed, we moved on with a "new normal", and the world wasn't disrupted enough to really break the systems that keep large scale human existence bumping along...

IMO a new normal that welcomes intellectual laziness and that's allowed to masquerade as competence, is getting close to some kind of break point beyond which things drastically change for the worse.


I do believe that machine learning (at this point mischaracterized as AI) can be of tremendous benefit for many things, but we have to retain the ability to do all of those things "AI" makes easier, for ourselves, so that we're still in control of the results (and as a backstop, when the technology fails).

The over availability, low quality, and headlong rush to use it for almost everything are the problems, not the core technology.

[LorenzoL]

.......

Writing: Socrates feared writing would breed forgetfulness and destroy our memory.

Printing Press: The Church feared the printed word would spread dangerous ideas and undermine intellectual authority.

Photography: Painters feared machines would replace true artistic soul.

Calculator: Educators feared students would lose the ability to understand real mathematics.

History has proven that advancements in technology have not destroyed our humanity. They've redefined it and helped us achieved excellence not previously imagined.

To some extent, all of the innovations you mention *did* do the anticipated damage the naysayers feared.
Society changed, we moved on with a "new normal", and the world wasn't disrupted enough to really break the systems that keep large scale human existence bumping along...

IMO a new normal that welcomes intellectual laziness and that's allowed to masquerade as competence, is getting close to some kind of break point beyond which things drastically change for the worse.


I do believe that machine learning (at this point mischaracterized as AI) can be of tremendous benefit for many things, but we have to retain the ability to do all of those things "AI" makes easier, for ourselves, so that we're still in control of the results (and as a backstop, when the technology fails).

The over availability, low quality, and headlong rush to use it for almost everything are the problems, not the core technology.

Spot on.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Which Spyderco super steel would you all say is the closest to a tool steel but with very high rust and corrosion resistance?

[sal]

Truth be told, I'm more concerned about AI destroying innovation, inventors and designers. Yes, we, (Gail, Eric and I) are business people, but we are also creative, which is harder to find, learn and teach. in 20 years, AI will get the credit. Sal & Eric who?

I'm carrying a knife today has the name "Sal" on it. But I doubt Sal ever touched or even laid eyes on this knife.

Hi RustyIron,

With all due respect, I find that comment a bit insulting. Any knife that has my tag on it was designed by me, exclusively, and I manage the design through all areas; drawings, modifications, prototyping, tooling, production, QC, and I test them personally at every stage.

Eric's designs are handled the same way. I think you have misaligned thinking on how our products are created.

sal

[awa54]

...also, entirely *on* topic this time; didn't Erasteel buy both the IP and physical infrastructure of Crucible? If so, why wouldn't they continue to produce all of the CPM alloys that are commercially viable?

It would be interesting to know whether the IP for SPY27 and Larrin's CPM reliant alloys are now shared with Erasteel, or if the respective designers of those steels are now free to find another foundry that can produce them (albeit with a subtly different powder metallurgy process).

[Synov]

Which Spyderco super steel would you all say is the closest to a tool steel but with very high rust and corrosion resistance?

Magnacut of course.

[ChrisinHove]

As humans we all stand on the shoulders of giants, even other giants who move things still further forward.

My perception of AI design is that it just reiterates, just like less talented people do, however. Good design will continue to shine through, but the real battle will be over IP.

As an aside, It must be a fantastic feeling to know you have really contributed to a field of design.

As to the original topic, I think increasingly sophisticated modelling of steel recipes and foundry techniques will continue to create improved steels, but with diminishing practical benefits in the field of pocket knives.

[awa54]

...also, entirely *on* topic this time; didn't Erasteel buy both the IP and physical infrastructure of Crucible? If so, why wouldn't they continue to produce all of the CPM alloys that are commercially viable?

It would be interesting to know whether the IP for SPY27 and Larrin's CPM reliant alloys are now shared with Erasteel, or if the respective designers of those steels are now free to find another foundry that can produce them (albeit with a subtly different powder metallurgy process).

If anyone is interested in at least a partial answer to this question, it's here: viewtopic.php?t=98121

[Red Leader]

Which Spyderco super steel would you all say is the closest to a tool steel but with very high rust and corrosion resistance?

Magnacut of course.

I'm wondering is Magnamax also falls into this territory as well. Larrin called it 'stainless K390' based on his experience, as I have heard that analogy drawn many times from users here who have had it out in the real world, so it is proving itself out. I'm very excited about the prospect of this steel coming to production in the future. I wonder if we might see it appear in a Reveal catalog this year? I think it would be absolutely stellar in the new PM2 LW platform (w/ a new color to denote the steel?), as well as a Native LW and Native Salt (if the new heat gives us those properties).

[Synov]

Which Spyderco super steel would you all say is the closest to a tool steel but with very high rust and corrosion resistance?

Magnacut of course.

I'm wondering is Magnamax also falls into this territory as well. Larrin called it 'stainless K390' based on his experience, as I have heard that analogy drawn many times from users here who have had it out in the real world, so it is proving itself out. I'm very excited about the prospect of this steel coming to production in the future. I wonder if we might see it appear in a Reveal catalog this year? I think it would be absolutely stellar in the new PM2 LW platform (w/ a new color to denote the steel?), as well as a Native LW and Native Salt (if the new heat gives us those properties).

Yup.

[silver & black]

The Golden Era of steel has only just begun...IMO. Look at what we have seen in just the last 10 years. I seriously doubt that there isn't more to be seen/had in the future. Dr. Larrin T. is still amoung us, after all.

[Red Leader]

The Golden Era of steel has only just begun...

Agreed. We are on the cusp of some amazing developments to come, and it is fun to see Spyderco in the mix right at the very bleeding 'edge'.