Golden Age of Supersteels Over???

[RustyIron]

The French one looks like this. It would be a significant project. I don't think the current US government is into anything solar or wind.

Odeillo is interesting, especially for the time it was built. It uses 63 heliostats reflecting onto a giant parabolic mirror. It concentrates about 1 megawatt onto a target about the size of a large cooking pot.

The Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System is probably the most recognizable solar facility. Peak output is about 400 megawatts, utilizing 173,500 heliostats. The owners of the facility (Google, BrightSource, and NRG) want to decommission two units and replace them with photovoltaics, which are far more economical. The government is opposing the decommissioning.

[Mark!]

Hi Mark,
FYI, I never rece9ved anything regarding the solution presented.

sal

The forum email doesn't seem to be working. How can I send you some clever ideas for consideration? I see the possibility of Spyderco patenting some of them for itself. Simply publishing them here would make it impossible to obtain a patent. And any third-party manufacturer could use them.

[Mark!]

The Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System is probably the most recognizable solar facility. Peak output is about 400 megawatts, utilizing 173,500 heliostats.

The problem is that it's converted into electricity, which results in energy losses of up to 70-75%. Melting steel directly under sunlight, without using electricity, significantly reduces losses. This means the mirror's surface area can be reduced by 70%. The entire production process can be made much more compact and cost-effective.

[Danke]

The French one looks like this. It would be a significant project. I don't think the current US government is into anything solar or wind.

Odeillo is interesting, especially for the time it was built. It uses 63 heliostats reflecting onto a giant parabolic mirror. It concentrates about 1 megawatt onto a target about the size of a large cooking pot.

The Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System is probably the most recognizable solar facility. Peak output is about 400 megawatts, utilizing 173,500 heliostats. The owners of the facility (Google, BrightSource, and NRG) want to decommission two units and replace them with photovoltaics, which are far more economical. The government is opposing the decommissioning.


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[fanglekai]

I wrote to Sal twice, but he never responded. So I'll write it here in the open. Therefore, it's no longer possible to patent this—its novelty has been violated by open publication.

Melting steel is very expensive these days. So it makes sense to ask the sun for help. To solve the steel production problem, I would propose creating an eco-division—Spyderco Solar Steel (SSS). Incidentally, it's a wonderful acronym for their steel brand.

What does a solar furnace "Spyderco Solar Steel" (SSS) for scale-up steel production look like? The crucible with the charge is at the focus of the mirrors. Sunlight melts the steel for free when the sun is shining. Due to the extremely high temperature at the focus (up to 3500°C) and the cleanliness of the heating (absence of combustion products), the process will be cleaner than in any furnace. The issue of sun availability is easily resolved by locating production in a sunny state or neighboring Mexico.

A wheel-shaped (or disc-shaped) seed touches the melt through a layer of flux. Furthermore, no one can stop you from building a large, transparent-walled cabinet around the crucible and filling it with inert gas. Or filling it with gas from the combustion of a certain amount of fuel. This will at least protect the hot metal from oxidation. As the seed wheel rotates, the adhering metal is released from the crucible. On this disk, the melt rapidly cools, forming a micrograined steel structure. Then, passing through the flux again, the wheel contacts a new layer of metal, which also quickly transfers heat to the previous layer.

Thus, 10 kg of high-quality micrograined metal can be built up on a small workpiece in an hour. You can build up several different steels into a single ingot, creating a delicious layered pie for a knife lover. Thanks to rapid crystallization and multiple recrystallization, the resulting ingot should be close to that of CPM steels. The amount of metal required is determined by the size of the mirrors and crucibles. All of this is scalable and inexpensive compared to metallurgical furnaces. Scaling: More mirrors -> more energy -> larger crucible -> larger seed = larger blanks can be grown.

There are only a few industrial-scale solar furnaces in the world. They are located in research centers (in France, Uzbekistan, Spain, and Russia). And no one grows knife steel using the sun as a standard eco-technology. I think the investment in a laboratory installation operating on a company roof is insignificant. There, the technology could be refined through laboratory testing. Then, engineers could be tasked with creating the first large-scale industrial installation capable of producing several dozen kilograms of this solar steel per day. Then, all that's left is to accumulate experience and expand your business.

ps
... our eco-friendly knives are produced by the sun itself.

You're wrong about the patenting aspect. Assuming this is your invention and you're the one making the disclosure, you have a 1 year grace period during which this disclosure cannot be used against you as prior art. See MPEP 2152 discussing 35 USC 102(b)(1) (AIA). https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s2152.html.

You're also sort of wrong in your later post. Spyderco didn't invent your invention, so no one at Spyderco can be a named inventor on it. You would need to be listed as a named inventor on the application along with any other inventors and then you (or you all) would need to assign the rights to Spyderco. https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s301.html https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s605.html

[RustyIron]

Melting steel directly under sunlight, without using electricity, significantly reduces losses.

I suspect that we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

You might convince me otherwise with a short video of you melting the blade of your Manbug into a little puddle.

Show me and convince me.

[Danke]

[sal]

Hi Mark,
FYI, I never rece9ved anything regarding the solution presented.

sal

The forum email doesn't seem to be working. How can I send you some clever ideas for consideration? I see the possibility of Spyderco patenting some of them for itself. Simply publishing them here would make it impossible to obtain a patent. And any third-party manufacturer could use them.

Hi Mark,

Patents are more complicated that you think. I ask that designers do not post their designs or ideas in public. You are neither the inventor or designer of the idea, which you would have to be to lose it to public showing.

Send your emails to Wendy at wborchers@spyderco.com.

I get 100 to 200 emails per day so Wendy would be a better connection.

sal

[Mark!]

You're wrong about the patenting aspect. Assuming this is your invention and you're the one making the disclosure, you have a 1 year ...

Thank you for your concern. My oldest patent is dated June 23, 2003. It was a long process, lasting almost 4 years. This is related to my scientific activities. I have different patents for different technologies in several countries. I know what novelty, industrial applicability, prior research, and other subtleties mean. So let me do what makes Spyderco profitable and makes its customers happy. In this thread, I mentioned a small selection of innovative approaches whose disclosure is least risky. I have much simpler and easier to implement solutions. But only Sal will know about this. This is necessary to avoid theft by competitors and patent trolls.

Send your emails to Wendy at wborchers@spyderco.com.

Thank you for your prompt response. I understand. Now I need some time to prepare and illustrate some useful ideas for potential Spyderco patents. Then I'll send them to this address addressed to you.

[sal]

Hi Mark,

Thanx. Appreciate that, and appreciate having you, and other very bright folks like you, that visit here.

sal

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Sal, regarding super steel, I know many folks are very skeptical of the following, because it seems so sci fi like.

If only we can create an alloy or compound that somehow merges the elastic flexibility of polymers and plastics with the strength, feel, and hardness of steel and hard metals, and that is rust proof like the nitrogen alloys.

Plasteel. Plassteel. Polysteel. SteelPlast. Various names have been used.

After decades of reading the metallurgical literature the closest I see to make this a tangible reality is to:

1 Combine steel with Fullerene Carbon Molecules
2 Somehow bond metal to polymer without heat by mechanical force at the nano meter level.
Not soldering because that would weaken the bonds.

In the 1990s Fighting Knives magazine had an article about a company called Tygre Knives. The owner took titanium and laminated it to carbon steel but had to use a soldering material because supposedly titanium does not weld directly to steel. This made the blades work but over time the solder stuff weakened.

Imagine a titanium carbon plastic steel alloy Mule knife.

Your thoughts are welcome, sir.

[zhyla]

I know many folks are very skeptical of the following, because it seems so sci fi like.

No, this is a knife forum, not a material scientist forum. There may be some actual material scientists in our midst. But apart from them nobody, including you, has a clue what you’re saying or why you think it’s both possible and beneficial. Might as well just ramble about light sabers.

[Danke]

I think I heard someone in the back yelling about lightsabers.

[RustyIron]

this is a knife forum, not a material scientist forum.

MAY be? I hope you didn't offend the good doctor with your careless omission.

Perhaps the metallurgist wannabes can subscribe to his Patreon, and then they can ask him directly why he's withholding the secret formula for the Flexible Titanium Fullerene Plastic Laminated Nano Meter Knife Blades.

[sal]

Hi SEF,

To date, there is nothing quite like steel. Steel development continues, as does knife knowledge, and edge geometries. Humans have been refining and evolving the edge for hundreds of thousands of years. Many materials have come and gone. Will the future bring us a new "Edge" material? Probably.

But Spyderco is not an R&D lab. While we do and try a lot of R&D stuff, we still have to keep the lights on and pay the staff. Yes, we have introduced many new ideas, programs, like Mule Teams, working with many different steels and other mediums, clips, hole openers, teeth, etc.

I'll always listen. It is my nature. But if I were 20 years younger, I would try to develop a hybrid foundry for particle metallurgy steels rather that try to melt steel with the sun.

Truth be told, I'm more concerned about AI destroying innovation, inventors and designers. Yes, we, (Gail, Eric and I) are business people, but we are also creative, which is harder to find, learn and teach. in 20 years, AI will get the credit. Sal & Eric who?

sal

[Jeb]

Big Sal,

I do fear some of the stuff AI will be used to do in a negative nature. We do have those that live amongst us that ruin some of the best that technology brings us.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Thank you for your great reply, sal. Yes as I see it you and your team are doing everything right.
I appreciate you being willing to read and consider these ideas I and others have so greatly wanted.

I do think the composite diamond like material claims are very realistic for future Edges.

Here is why:

1 This requires no new physics. I have been telling that to the detractors for years now.
It is "only" an engineering challenge.
No antigravity, room temperature superconducting neutronium here.
The physics and chemistry of the Covalent bond has been known for over 100 years.

All we need to do to make this as real and mass produced as particle metallurgy and stainless steel is to merge biology with mechanical engineering.

We need more Inter Disciplinary people teams.

Imagine combining men like Larrin and the late Cliff Stamp with molecular biologists to make manmade machines that mimic living cells.

2 We have Chemical Vapor Deposition.
We have Molecular Beam Epitaxy.
We have Scanning Probe Microscopes like Atomic Force Microscopes and Scanning Tunnelling Microscopes. These can make atomic layers but on a small scale.

The big Assembler Bottleneck that Richard Feynman and Eric Drexler spoke of is this:

Our hands are too big, sal.

We need to be able to directly, under machine control, Mechanically grip carbon and nitrogen and silicon and bond them together under our patterns.

Once this can be done we will see a diamondoid Stretch that is 100 times stronger than stainless steel. It will not break or shatter because molecular crack stopping fibers will be built into it. :)

[LorenzoL]

Stop the madness!

[Blerv]

To quote Dr Ian Malcom (Jeff Goldblum from Jurassic Park), “ "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.”

It seems for the longest time manufacturers were pushing for solutions to toughness, grind ability, edge stability, and trying to crack the magic edge retention goal. By now they have been able to check most those boxes and max out the sliders.

Even if one could max out every slider with a single steel you would have to contend with the cost. Most my knives are still factory sharp or at least serviceable so would I rather have a quality steel (VG10 or better) and more designs than one $2000+ knife that never chip, holds an edge for eons, sharpens easy, and doesn’t rust.

On that note, I personally feel Spyderco nailed the holy grail of combinations when it serrated H1 and put it in a liner-less FRN handle. Toughness, edge retention, comfort, and cost. The closest thing in PE seems innovation in a well rounded steel like Cru-Wear or Magnacut using a compound grind which gives you a thick and thin angle depending on your need.

For lack of a better definition, “metal” has amazing properties as Sal noted for making a sharp tool. It’s had one helluva run :) .

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Sal, here is an idea, what if someone in a metallurgical lab combines H2 or MagnaCut with molecular level carbon rods arranged in tetrahedral diamond pattern. Using an Atomic Force Microscope. It may yield a new, upgraded alloy.