China

[ChrisinHove]

Unless Spyderco want to make a political statement by withdrawing from China, I suppose the key questions are whether Spyderco can thrive without having Chinese made products to sell (bearing in mind they may be the gateway into the brand for many), how many potential customers are deterred from the brand by having those in the catalogue at all, and how might that balance change in the future.

Overseas production does seem to be part of Spyderco DNA, though. One can find reason not to buy from any country on earth if you want to.

[BornIn1500]

The Bow River was the stepping stone for what initially brought me to Spyderco products. From there, I got the China-made Polestar. After those, I went on to buy the more premium offerings. I don't think I'm alone in thinking that inexpensive China knives are good for brand introduction. For current enthusiasts, they're a step down. But for people just getting into it, even a Bow River is a step up. And some of those people keep climbing...

[RyanY]

Unless Spyderco want to make a political statement by withdrawing from China, I suppose the key questions are whether Spyderco can thrive without having Chinese made products to sell (bearing in mind they may be the gateway into the brand for many), how many potential customers are deterred from the brand by having those in the catalogue at all, and how might that balance change in the future.

Overseas production does seem to be part of Spyderco DNA, though. One can find reason not to buy from any country on earth if you want to.

This is true; many people outside the US would have no trouble finding some reason why they "don't want to support the US gov't" or other reasons. Diverse and successful overseas production is indeed something that sets Spyderco apart from other US knife companies.

I would like to reiterate my request to have the city name on the blade, pretty please The city name just does something psychologically for adding a bit of "soul" and character to the knife. It makes it more local and connected to the people who actually made it, and less focused on a nation-state. When I talk about my Spyderco collection, I don't have USA-made knives and Japan-made knives and Taiwan-made knives. I have Golden knives, Seki knives, and Taichung knives. It really does make a difference, for me at least.

Also, nothing wrong with 8cr really, but I would prefer something more stainless if it isn't going to be a high performance tool steel then I want it to be more like vg10 and bd1n in terms of corrosion resistance for ease of maintenance.

[BornIn1500]

When I talk about my Spyderco collection, I don't have USA-made knives and Japan-made knives and Taiwan-made knives. I have Golden knives, Seki knives, and Taichung knives. It really does make a difference, for me at least.

They made a number of models that only had Japan on them.

[James Y]

When I talk about my Spyderco collection, I don't have USA-made knives and Japan-made knives and Taiwan-made knives. I have Golden knives, Seki knives, and Taichung knives. It really does make a difference, for me at least.

They made a number of models that only had Japan on them.

The models that were only stamped "Japan" were made by Moki, and the ones stamped "Seki-City, Japan" are made by G. Sakai.

Jim

[DavidNM]

For me China is not a friendly country to the United States and I prefer not sending money to them so they can strengthen their military.

[ykspydiefan]

Is production in China really a choice today? Tariffs' are leveling the playing field. USA is causing business to bring production back to USA. This is good for America. OK.

A year or two ago, posing these questions may have been about choice. Now it is 100% politics.

[ykspydiefan]

To the questions at hand.

I would not pay 6x for the same Tenacious made in China because the political narrative has changed.

I would not allow my intellectual property or physical product to be repeatedly stolen. I would move my facilities to a safer place. In reality, counterfeiting will occur if your factories are in China or not. People always find a way to steel good stuff.

[Cletus]

The Chinese folk are generally wonderful. Very close family's, and they take care of their elderly. The Chinese government is run by a dictator and possibly one of the world's worst, and they have their fingers in ALL the pies. Organ harvesting, death vans and slave labor. Not to mention they can steal your business. The folks Spyderco works with there are no doubt very nice people, and they do very good work. But their government is out of their control and is not to be trusted, ever. Do I buy Spyderco's from China? Yes, but not much any more because I follow what the CCP is doing and I just do not want to support their .gov.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Red Leader, two Byrds with one stone :)

[SpyderEdgeForever]

The Chinese folk are generally wonderful. Very close family's, and they take care of their elderly. The Chinese government is run by a dictator and possibly one of the world's worst, and they have their fingers in ALL the pies. Organ harvesting, death vans and slave labor. Not to mention they can steal your business. The folks Spyderco works with there are no doubt very nice people, and they do very good work. But their government is out of their control and is not to be trusted, ever. Do I buy Spyderco's from China? Yes, but not much any more because I follow what the CCP is doing and I just do not want to support their .gov.

Cletus, I see this, too.
I have two questions for you and others.

1 how can the CCP be removed but the good parts of Chinese culture you mention be preserved? If that is too political don't reply to that.

2 Why do many Chinese made knives seem to lack the depth and detail in a blade grind that knives made in Japan, USA, and Europe have?
I don't have the exact wording right but examine the Seki Endura and Golden made knives to some from mainland China.

There are exceptions, ofcourse. What descriptive word am I seeking? Depth of grind? Angles?

[Red Leader]

Red Leader, two Byrds with one stone :)

Ha! Good one!

This has been a fascinating discussion, one that I am grateful for. Not sure where it will all land, but I appreciate the acitive interest as I do think it is a very important topic.

[mokele]

I just see what happened to Abu Garcia ambassadeur reels when they moved production to China. The quality dropped, but more so the Company image.

Choosing 8Cr steel won't help, either. All my folders are either k390 or zdp-189, I need that edge retention, and Spyderco has that reputation.

[Naperville]

My interaction with Asian students at universities in the USA. I learned nunchucks from a student from China in the late 1970's at IIT in Chicago. There were many Chinese students on campus. I used the campus library to read in the 70's and 80's. I liked to study all sorts of things related to hull design, I was interested in multihull racing and eventually raced Hobie Cats.

In general Chinese knife makers study what sells like every other knife maker.

When I was at Big 12, Iowa State, around 1995 there were teams of Chinese people who knew English walking around with clipboards that were asking questions about what we liked about our clothes, shoes, backpacks, TV sets, cars, etc. They took notes. Asked about brands, prices, etc. It was strange then, but now it makes sense.

China's success is not by accident. They watch designs, trends in colors, prices, etc. They can make anything if they can get their hands on the raw materials. No matter which political system is in power in China, they are here now and trying to become #1 in all things: military, space, manufacturing, athletics, you name it China wants to be #1.

The CCP is a political party that took control of the country and they direct and control everything. You have to understand Communism to understand how their system works. All of the businesses either directly or through taxation support the CCP and are controlled by the CCP. If the agents of the CCP see a market to take over, they write up a plan, and shift funds to make the development of manufacturing to take it over.

We like our Freedom and Liberty, what is left of it, but that is a different subject. What you have to ask yourself is if China has a better manufacturing system because many billions of state funds (capital) and manpower that can be directed anywhere to any need at a moments notice. The housing and banking crisis that has been ongoing in China since 2018 shows that their system does not work well, but for many things it does.

China does not believe in intellectual property. Yet, they do get patents.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I just see what happened to Abu Garcia ambassadeur reels when they moved production to China. The quality dropped, but more so the Company image.

Choosing 8Cr steel won't help, either. All my folders are either k390 or zdp-189, I need that edge retention, and Spyderco has that reputation.

This raises a good and important issue that I mentioned previously. Can Spyderco produce budget knives with steel greater than 8Cr13MoV?
Some have suggested this.

[vapedudde1975]

China makes good looking knifes I don't trust that they do everything the right way if it means getting over on Americans. This is something I made up it's facts they target the best American made companies with cloning for one reason it's to weaken those company's stealing everything they can. I own knifes made in China I refuse to pay more than 100$ for a knife made there. They use slave labor is it worth few extra bucks per knife to condone this behavior NO it's not so I don't. Spyderco is one of very few companies I trust I hope they stop making any knifes in China until they take care of their workers. I know some people aren't going to like my post but it's true I don't mean to hurt your feeling.

[zhyla]

I appreciate your rebuttal.

Do you think that Spyderco was successful before 2008? My comment was mainly historical in nature, so no, I don't really conflate the idea of them outsourcing to China with their initial successes and rise into a premier knife company.

Here is my view. I don’t have all the facts or inside perspective though.

Success is a moving target. Spyderco was not always the premier brand. At one time they were the “good enough” brand you bought that was much cheaper than Benchmade. The enthusiast market didn’t dominate pocket knives back then. Now it seems to, or at least it dominates Spyderco.

The Native was originally an effort to stay relevant. I suspect the Chinese knives are the same. I think I’ve run into two people in a decade carrying a Spyderco knife. And I live in an area where most people can drop $200 on a pocket knife if they want to.

It’s not about success to me, it’s about relevance.

[chronovore]

Sigh ok going to try and redirect this back to the original request by Sal. Please no politics as requested by @sal in the first post.

I have a question that has been percolating in the back of my mind. Does China have any premium, tool or super steels? Maybe @Larrin could weigh in on this? If China does have any of these steels why don’t they seem to be used for knives? I’d be more interested then. But would need to know the equivalent matching steels from around the globe or at least compared to the steels that Larrin has in his charts.

AFAIK, China does not have powder-metallurgy facilities for blade steel. However, they have been doing some work with spray-form technology. There are three Chinese spray-form blade steels that I know about: AR-RPM9, AR-SFII, and YJ01-V1.

The first two are exclusive to Artisan Cutlery. AR-RPM9 is effectively a spray-form version of 9Cr18Mov and 9Cr18Mov is honestly a better budget steel than a lot of people give it credit for. 9Cr18Mov reaches the 440C-ballpark on edge retention but with excellent corrosion resistance and a little less toughness. Doing it by spray-form wasn't a bad idea in theory. Reports from various sources suggest that AR-RPM9 achieves higher toughness and even higher corrosion resistance versus regular 9Cr18Mov. Unfortunately, keeping it exclusive means that we only ever get it with Artisan's heat treatment. This hurts when WE does an excellent heat treatment on regular 9Cr18Mov in their Civivi, Sencut, and Ferrum Forge knives. In controlled cut testing, WE's 9Cr18Mov did significantly better than AR-RPM9.

AR-RPM9 was also something of a marketing disaster in that it was wrongly hyped (and even named) as being made with powder metallurgy. They had some kind of excuse after that reality became known but multiple bad experiences with Artisan QC and customer service dissuades me from caring. The same goes for my interest in trying AR-SFII, although anecdotal reports on the few knives that use it have been promising. The recipe for AR-SFII seems to be based on BG-42, which I've never used but have seen compared to 154CM.

YJ01-V1 on the other hand is exclusive to TwoSun. The recipe is similar to M390 but with modifications, such as going up to 5% vanadium and adding 0.5% cobalt. Initial reports on this one have been decent but again, it isn't used in very many knives and TwoSun doesn't have a huge retail presence in the United States.

[akapennypincher]

Never like dealing with Chinese in Business, or have to work for them. JMHO.

[ThrottleCable]

Aside from 2 Bow River Phil Wilson models, I own no knives that were made in China. There are a few from various manufacturers that I really like the look of, but I don't need them to live, and I choose not to spend my money there. I will probably buy 2 of the new Shelter Coves, under duress, just because Phil's designs work so well for me. I also have 2 Sprigs and 2 South Forks, and I would have gladly paid the premium for US made Bow RIvers or Shelter Coves.

I don't mind that Spyderco makes knives in China, I just choose not to purchase them.