China

[SpyderEdgeForever]

What do the everyday Chinese people in China and outside of China who carry Spyderco and other knives advise Spyderco to do and how can the CCP be replaced by a new Chinese republic that is free like Taiwan and USA?

Ernest Emerson said these criminals sell counterfeits of American knives by the pound.

An American Chinese man who hates the CCP and loves the USA told me it was like a living nightmare when that monster Mao took over. I feel so sad for these people.

Do any of you know if this is true? A knife collector told me some Japanese knife companies secretly have knives made in China and Made in Japan or Seki laser engraved into the blade to make people think they are made in Japan. That is scary.

In the 90s a knife seller at a gun and knife show told me China and Pakistan would engrave Made in Solingen, Germany onto cheap knives to fool people into thinking it was German steel.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

A Spyderco Byrd CaraCara started my collection and it's a good knife for the money. So I'm certainly not against China made (Spyderco) knives.
In the recent times with pricing going up, Spyderco MAP enforcement didn't help back in the day, I've also acquired some knives made by WE Knife. They are truly solid, great manufacturing and attention to detail.

I'm looking forward to the ButtonUp it looks like a compelling package (ball-bearing/button lock/G10). Hopefully it also will be available with an upgraded steel in the future.

True.
As I posted in the Byrd Section, I gifted two Byrd Cara Cara 2 folders to two friends. After several years of edc use the original factory edges sre still sharp, with no sharpening. That is quality. I credit Spyderco for that.

[VandymanG]

A Spyderco Byrd CaraCara started my collection and it's a good knife for the money. So I'm certainly not against China made (Spyderco) knives.
In the recent times with pricing going up, Spyderco MAP enforcement didn't help back in the day, I've also acquired some knives made by WE Knife. They are truly solid, great manufacturing and attention to detail.

I'm looking forward to the ButtonUp it looks like a compelling package (ball-bearing/button lock/G10). Hopefully it also will be available with an upgraded steel in the future.

Yeah I’m not going to pay American prices for a knife made in China. Hard pass on that. I know WE/Civivi has a reputation for good quality. But a knife made in China doesn’t cost as much to make and then they sell it to us at American market price. Nope definitely hard pass. When it was just Civivi they had more reasonable prices but even then some were priced too high. I have one Damascus knife from them gifted to me by my daughter. But since then she has gotten me Spyderco Sprint runs - PM3 15V G10 and Dragonfly PD#1.

[chronovore]

I've occasionally taken heat for my love of Chinese knives over the years. It's not just delivering cool stuff at great prices but that I really love liner locks on bearings with snappy action, especially with Micarta scales. There, something like 99% of the choices are coming from China. (Honestly, I'd love to see more knives like that from Spyderco.) So they naturally dominate the folder slot in my EDC.

I think there are crucial distinctions missing in some of the comments in this thread. While there is a lot to be said about the Chinese government, I don't think it's fair to lump all of the different Chinese people, designers, companies, or brands together as just "China". Sure, there are bad actors among them and the copying issue remains a problem. AliExpress is full of examples. This and lower-quality manufacturers are responsible for a lot of the non-political opposition. Things have changed though. There are just so many more Chinese companies delivering not only high quality but original designs and legit collaborations with Western designers. While some American companies still keep the identity of their Chinese manufacturers a secret, we're seeing more who are proud to share that their products are being made by WE, Kizer, Bestech, Kubey, etc..

Considering my earlier statement about liking certain kinds of knives and wishing Spyderco would get into making them, I think there can be a benefit in being able to more easily try different things when using Chinese manufacturers. For instance, I know Spyderco has history with Sanrenmu. I just picked up a very nice new release from them, an elegant front flipper in 14C28N and G10 with great action and solid lock-up for like $40. So if @sal had Sanrenmu do a nice Spydie in 14C28N on bearings, I'd be celebrating it at even twice that price. Heck, I'd gladly pay a hundred bucks and thank him for the opportunity.

[Red Leader]

"I do believe, in many States in USA, if a person stood in front of you and clearly stated, I am going to war on your wallet, I am taking your job and money, I am going to take your property... Well, lots of Americans would draw and shoot that guy."

There is a bit of 'wild west' rhetoric that many countries outside of the US have about the US, especially when it comes to deadly force. I think a lot of that is due to the the (always bad) sensationalist news that is largely the only thing many non-US folks receive as info. I guarantee that the person you describe in your scenario would simply be laughed at for most. Many people in the US appreciate the ability to defend ourselves if our life, or the life of someone else (like family) is in imminent danger, and even then probably try to get away from the danger as fast as possible unless cornered w/ no other options. The notion that 'paranoid people strap on guns and then try to walk down dark alleys' doesn't really exist, in as much as I can see. The people that 'carry' are the most polite, courteous people I know. Just wanted to provide you maybe a different perspective.

This thread is drifting a bit. Back to knives. Does Spyderco have any plans to talk more about who makes their knives in China? I would really like to know, and since the business ethics and working conditions found in China can be murky and concerning on a widescale basis, is there a bit of an obligation here if they expect people to buy into these products?

[ykspydiefan]

"I do believe, in many States in USA, if a person stood in front of you and clearly stated, I am going to war on your wallet, I am taking your job and money, I am going to take your property... Well, lots of Americans would draw and shoot that guy."

There is a bit of 'wild west' rhetoric that many countries outside of the US have about the US, especially when it comes to deadly force. I think a lot of that is due to the the (always bad) sensationalist news that is largely the only thing many non-US folks receive as info. I guarantee that the person you describe in your scenario would simply be laughed at for most. Many people in the US appreciate the ability to defend ourselves if our life, or the life of someone else (like family) is in imminent danger, and even then probably try to get away from the danger as fast as possible unless cornered w/ no other options. The notion that 'paranoid people strap on guns and then try to walk down dark alleys' doesn't really exist, in as much as I can see. The people that 'carry' are the most polite, courteous people I know. Just wanted to provide you maybe a different perspective.

This thread is drifting a bit. Back to knives. Does Spyderco have any plans to talk more about who makes their knives in China? I would really like to know, and since the business ethics and working conditions found in China can be murky and concerning on a widescale basis, is there a bit of an obligation here if they expect people to buy into these products?

Certainly, back to Spyderco knives in China. I think you are on to some good questions. I recall seeing early propaganda videos from Silicon Valley businesses highlighting corporate culture, working conditions and benefits. They always highlighted games rooms, relaxation and rest space, open working environment and a good kitchen.

I think as much as possible, a factory tour would be great. Meet some employees, get to know and see the show. I am sure people have asked as much for a Golden factory tour too. Anything that brings your consumer closer to your product, any way to encourage relationships with staff and customer is just good business.

Thank you for highlighting the mechanics behind my opinion, Red Leader. True, I have a guns first, wild west (todays street gang,) opinion of USA. Google, the mechanism, google puts up millions + links to people having bad outcomes, when we google stand your ground. Youtube is worse. The machine is always showing us the worst. The nice people in nice neighbourhoods doing nice things and happen to open carry, well not click worthy let alone viral. The machine wants emotional reactions.

I believe the machine sends us the same reactionary information about China. Yes, the world has a different opinion about the average Americans' use of deadly force. And, their opinion may be wildly wrong.

Please, lets stay open to the possibility that many, I, we... have a wildly wrong opinion about China too.

There is no truth today that can not be held in your hand.

[Scandi Grind]

Good job reeling the thread back in, ykspydiefan and Red Leader.

I think the most logical argument for Chinese products even if you dislike the government's politics is that each company is individual. I do think this argument is limited a little by the fact that much of general Chinese business practices are somewhat inherently influenced by the government whether even those companies like it or not.

However the bigger thing for me, whether I think it is intentional or not, is that the surplus of cheap goods from China is hurting US manufacturing. It would be a shame to me if I didn't know how to cook good food for myself at home and was stuck eating low quality take out or pre-prepared meals for the rest of my life. In a similar way I don't want to see the US become incapable of making good quality products for itself, so those are the products I try to invest in when I have the opportunity. And not just any US product indiscriminately, I like to buy products that are made by people who really care about what they make.

I can't afford to buy everything local, but I prefer to support local manufactering. I don't have an argument with Chinese manufactering quality from a trusted maker, and I don't have anything against Chinese people, but the governments influence is intertwined with the whole country's business structure. I don't have a hard line stance against Chinese products but when it comes to knives I have always been able to choose places of origin that I prefer to China.

[VandymanG]

Sigh ok going to try and redirect this back to the original request by Sal. Please no politics as requested by @sal in the first post.

I have a question that has been percolating in the back of my mind. Does China have any premium, tool or super steels? Maybe @Larrin could weigh in on this? If China does have any of these steels why don’t they seem to be used for knives? I’d be more interested then. But would need to know the equivalent matching steels from around the globe or at least compared to the steels that Larrin has in his charts.

[Mad Mac]

A friend of mine who is in the Jaguar parts business
explained "gray market" parts to me.
For example, Jaguar orders 5,000 water pumps
from their Chinese manufacturer.

Once the order is filled,
the manufacturer continues making
another 5,000 water pumps
and sells them on the "gray market".
They are exactly the same pumps Jaguar ordered
right down to the box they are shipped in.

Not suggesting this is happening to Spyderco,
but questioning whether American business
should continue rewarding this unethical practice.

[TazKristi]

As a friendly reminder, here's Sal's original post back on page 1. I have just had to remove numerous posts that shouldn't have been posted if we're minding the rules of our forum and Sal's polite request. Please keep the discussion civil.

Hi All,

There seems to be a lot of thought and opinions on China, with regards to knives, especially since the latest reveal.

Some say we are no longer a leader in the industry because of the latest model offerings. (Manta 4, Buttonup, Shelter Cove, Goonie). Some say to ditch China altogether. some say build more in China, etc.

I would like for you to share your thoughts? Questions? Suggestions? Preferences? etc.? Please try to avoid Partisan Politics as much as possible.

Thanx,

sal

[sal]

Thanx Kristi.

I know it's a tough line to walk, but I'm trying to learn what our customers (Afi's) think about our own direction with regards to the knives we make in China, not whether or not the US should annex Canada.

There are some "Political facts" which we know, or should know;

1. The CCP artificially devalues it's Yuan to take advantage of the world with regards to purchasing power of manufactured goods. Good for China, but questionable for the rest of the world with regards to long term manufacturing it their own countries. Not a fair playing field? The Yuan is 6/1 to the US dollar. So would you continue to purchase knives from Chinese makers if they were 6 times the cost?

2. Most of the counterfeits of products in any industry are produced in China and sold worldwide. Something that no one seems to be able to / or want to do anything about.

These are simple facts that we have to contend with at this time. Nothing we can affect and nothing that needs to be discussed in this thread.

This is a "sharing of thought" with regards to Spyderco, You and Chinese made knives by Spyderco. We've had a lot of good sharing of thoughts and ideas, which I would like to see continue. Arguing about the above 2 facts has no value in this discussion. Only how you think Spyderco should continue? Your kind cooperation is appreciated.

sal

[RichJo86]

Hi @sal,

In addition to my earlier post, I would like to add: yes I wouldn't mind to see a (upgraded) Chinese made line next to the Byrds. Better steel than 8cr, preferably stainless, ball-bearings, Spydie hole/flipper, button-lock/compression -lock

I've just acquired a Böker EDK for €123 (incl. tax)
Magnacut, ball-bearings, axis-lock and FRN scales.
All made/assembled in Solingen, Germany!

For the price, ok a tenner less, I 'just' get a Delica. Love the Delica btw, but the Böker feels a better deal.

I feel the same about other offerings. My Chaparral I paid €144 for back in the day (nowadays +-€200 with inflation) the new Fat Carbon Chaparral will get a retail price of €425.
That's sounds insane for a knife with just XHP steel, back-lock and nice CF scales. I've bought my Sage 6 S90V sprint-run for way less.

What I'm trying to say is that I think there is room to have a better price/value offering on the market.
Spyderco is a respected company but in my view other brands from China and elsewhere are offering more value for my Euro.

[VashHash]

I prefer to buy usa made products whenever I can.

[Danke]

Thanx Kristi.

I know it's a tough line to walk, but I'm trying to learn what our customers (Afi's) think about our own direction with regards to the knives we make in China, not whether or not the US should annex Canada.

There are some "Political facts" which we know, or should know;

1. The CCP artificially devalues it's Yuan to take advantage of the world with regards to purchasing power of manufactured goods. Good for China, but questionable for the rest of the world with regards to long term manufacturing it their own countries. Not a fair playing field? The Yuan is 6/1 to the US dollar. So would you continue to purchase knives from Chinese makers if they were 6 times the cost?

2. Most of the counterfeits of products in any industry are produced in China and sold worldwide. Something that no one seems to be able to / or want to do anything about.

These are simple facts that we have to contend with at this time. Nothing we can affect and nothing that needs to be discussed in this thread.

This is a "sharing of thought" with regards to Spyderco, You and Chinese made knives by Spyderco. We've had a lot of good sharing of thoughts and ideas, which I would like to see continue. Arguing about the above 2 facts has no value in this discussion. Only how you think Spyderco should continue? Your kind cooperation is appreciated.

sal

This is 100% your call. If you feel Spyderco shouldn't be in the People's Republic of China because of the risks and negatives then you know what you need to do. None of us are shareholders, none of us sit on a board. We all look to you and your staff to give us the best knives for our purposes. If that means the less expensive models aren't quite as affordable so be it.

[Wallach]

Thanx Kristi.

I know it's a tough line to walk, but I'm trying to learn what our customers (Afi's) think about our own direction with regards to the knives we make in China, not whether or not the US should annex Canada.

There are some "Political facts" which we know, or should know;

1. The CCP artificially devalues it's Yuan to take advantage of the world with regards to purchasing power of manufactured goods. Good for China, but questionable for the rest of the world with regards to long term manufacturing it their own countries. Not a fair playing field? The Yuan is 6/1 to the US dollar. So would you continue to purchase knives from Chinese makers if they were 6 times the cost?

2. Most of the counterfeits of products in any industry are produced in China and sold worldwide. Something that no one seems to be able to / or want to do anything about.

These are simple facts that we have to contend with at this time. Nothing we can affect and nothing that needs to be discussed in this thread.

This is a "sharing of thought" with regards to Spyderco, You and Chinese made knives by Spyderco. We've had a lot of good sharing of thoughts and ideas, which I would like to see continue. Arguing about the above 2 facts has no value in this discussion. Only how you think Spyderco should continue? Your kind cooperation is appreciated.

sal

All I can say is that for me personally I wouldn't buy a Spyderco out of China because they are clearly being used for maximum cost-effectiveness. Thus one of the primary reasons I love Spyderco knives - the amazing steel options and heat treatment expertise - is mostly wasted on budget materials.

When I look at other reputable Chinese knife companies like Kizer or Vosteed, I know that if I come across a design that actually does appeal to me, there is at least a decent chance that the knife will come out in a version with more premium materials. Spyderco is also a company that is known for the "sprint run" concept where I can usually bank on a good knife design coming out in at least some kind of interesting high-end steel down the road. With these Chinese Spydercos, I don't really get the impression that'll ever happen, because the more premium steels would be handled by one of the other factories.

So in a way I always dread seeing a really nice Spyderco design get sent over to China because it means it'll never actually show up with premium materials. It's obviously not a product meant for me, but I still don't love the idea that there may be other great knife designs that get wasted by being stuck in something like 8cr13mov. In that sense they don't really even "feel" like Spyderco knives to me.

For what it's worth, I feel this same way about one of my favorite local companies, Kershaw. They produce a huge amount of cheap, random knives out of China and they may as well not even say Kershaw on them. Even though they still produce some great high-quality knives here out of Oregon, I hate that I have to always double-check a really appealing new knife design from them and see what country it comes from. I definitely don't want to see that happen to Spyderco.

[Red Leader]

'What is Spyderco?'

When I think of that question, a few things come to mind...

A prime focus on performance steels...a round hole...a compression lock...and a great American success story with humble origins. That answer may change depending on whose being asked, but that is my answer.

The Chinese folders have that round hole...and not much else. In a twist of irony, new Chinese value knives are popping up overnight with button compression locks. Something none of the value Spydercos even have.

The original question was: China or no China? My answer is no China.

While I do think it is important to have budget knives, I do think every effort should be made to decouple from China.

No more Chinese 'Spydercos'. No more button (plunge) locks. No more 8Cr. Move them into the Byrd brand line so there is at least a little more brand/quality distinction to start. Then consolidate the value line significantly, top 5 selling designs/iterations. If people riot about certain designs going away, give them as a USA Sprint Run/Dealer Exclusive and be done with it. Then as that is happening, begin the search for a new manufacturing partner with a friendly trade nation, and challenge the R&D team to come up with a 'value USA' line that gives us a super basic Tenacious-ish knife w/ 14C28N in domestic production - I mean super basic molded handle, all T8 or T10 hardware, simple simple simple. Make a few others too. Nothing fancy. Budget steel. But US-made and a great heat treat. Bronze washers. I'd buy some. So would others.

Do you know how insane a budget USA made Tenacious/Native mashup with the Snecx Superlock (free to use, unless I'm mistaken??) would be? Give it 14C28N w/ that great Spydie heat treat, and watch the entire EDC folding knife world get turned on it's ear.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Sal, only answer what you can or want to, but how difficult would it be for Spyderco to establish ties with manufacturers in allied nations that are more on the same page of friendliness with American interests, that can produce knives for Spyderco that have none of the "baggage" that China does?
Perhaps folks on here can help that process?

[zhyla]

'What is Spyderco?'

When I think of that question, a few things come to mind...

A prime focus on performance steels...a round hole...a compression lock...and a great American success story with humble origins. That answer may change depending on whose being asked, but that is my answer.

The Chinese folders have that round hole...and not much else.

Hang on there, are you saying Chinese Spydercos don't have a great American success story with humble origins?

I think that's a bold thing to say. It takes a lot to ramp up successful production in China and put out products Spyderco can be proud of at a low price point. It's not a simple thing. That's Eric Glesser's initials on that new Mantra 4 coming out soon. Sal's on the Alcyone and Polestars.

This assertion here and there in this thread that Chinese factories can't produce knives with "soul" is obviously in people's heads. The CNC machines in China have the same amount of soul as the CNC machines in Taichung, Seki, and Golden. The "soul" is in the designer.

[Bolster]

...Move them into the Byrd brand line so there is at least a little more brand/quality distinction to start....

^ That seems like a good idea to me.

[Red Leader]

Hang on there, are you saying Chinese Spydercos don't have a great American success story with humble origins?

I think that's a bold thing to say. It takes a lot to ramp up successful production in China and put out products Spyderco can be proud of at a low price point. It's not a simple thing. That's Eric Glesser's initials on that new Mantra 4 coming out soon. Sal's on the Alcyone and Polestars.

This assertion here and there in this thread that Chinese factories can't produce knives with "soul" is obviously in people's heads. The CNC machines in China have the same amount of soul as the CNC machines in Taichung, Seki, and Golden. The "soul" is in the designer.

I appreciate your rebuttal.

Do you think that Spyderco was successful before 2008? My comment was mainly historical in nature, so no, I don't really conflate the idea of them outsourcing to China with their initial successes and rise into a premier knife company. To me those are two distinct parts of Spyderco's history. I get what you are saying, though, and I'll even agree that outsourcing to China has probably made them even more successful...shall that be construed as a great American success story? I'm not trying to argue the point, but if I walk into the SFO and every single Chinese knife had vanished from the cabinets, I still think their great American success story with humble origins would be intact. That is my association, and in thinking of either Spyderco's success story, or them becoming a premier knife company, China never entered my thoughts ever, not even once. Your experience (and theirs, franky) may disagree. Regarding the knife designs or starting up China factory production, I wasn't intending to simply it or trivialize it. I'm just saying I don't agree with it.

I'm not arguing against value/budget knives. But is there a way to do that without China? I suppose only Sal/Eric and Team would know. But I'd love to know if the same Taiwanese factory that made my daughter's $42 Chicago could take on the rest of the budget line? Could solve 2 birds with one stone. Maybe it could be a start?