H1Spyderco Machete?

[JoviAl]

If you search there was an incident involving a Rock Salt and a coconut that did not end well. Maybe chopping a coconut is asking too much?

viewtopic.php?p=550757#p550757
This was back before I knew how to chop into a coconut. But the fact that the edge deformed up into the hollow-grind after a poor strike on a coconut is concerning for use of H1 as a heavy duty chopper, in my opinion.

Coconuts can be mega tough, especially against the grain on the apex of their curve. I wonder how much of a difference it would make if that H1 had been SE though - my JM2 does a number on coconuts that my Silky Natas struggle to match even though they are much more substantial ‘chopper’ type designs.

Edit - upon closer examination of the pics on the old thread I see you were going with the grain on your cuts. I wonder if you’d penetrated all the way through the husk to the nut shell inside. I’ve broken the corner off of a heavy Asian block cleaver trying to crack into the nut, so that may have been the culprit of that damage to the edge.

[JoviAl]

There is a lot of mention of H2 so far, which I understand, but I wonder if some other less expensive stainless might be preferred for reasons of cost. It seems I'm on a kick suggesting AEB-L or 14C28N for everything lately, ha ha, but maybe one those would be a good middle ground between the common cabon steel machetes and a full on salt?

I would be much more likely to consider buying something like this if it can be made cheaper, and I'd imagine 14C28N would help reduce cost over H2. It also could open up the options for place of manufacture. Golden made machete? OK, well that might be more expensive, but I kinda like the thought all the same.

I also like the idea of 14C28N or AEB-L steels. I have mused about the day that Spyderco would offer a budget line in 14C. Maybe with this machete it could be the start of something great.


While I hold no opposition to Golden and in some ways prefer it, I wonder if it would have to come from Seki if they utilize a JM2 handle/scales. Or could they edm out the blades here, and contract out the scales from Seki? Best of both worlds?

The machete I’m serrating is 14C28N and thus far has shrugged off corrosion quite well. I don’t know if it is much cheaper than H2, but if Spyderco whipped up an optimised heat treat for it then it might be a decent compromise without compromising the objective of a rust proof (within reason) tool.

[JoviAl]

Ok, so round 1 of initial testing seems promising with SE. The bite on fibrous materials like coconut frond (which can be pretty challenging to cut, especially once your PE tool loses its initial razor edge) is impressive. The teeth seem to situate the blade and limit deflection, which in turn appears to equate into more energy directed into the direction of the cut and less side to side or sliding (think axe vs saw).

This was after 250 hacking cuts it was still cutting cleanly through with one low effort strike. The PE section of the blade next to the SE was barely penetrating by this point. Both sections of blade had lost their initial aggression (coarse edge from 240CW SC) but the SE was functionally operational still, whereas the PE was deflecting in the cut to follow the grain after the initial 45-ish degree strikes at about the middle of the frond (something that usually indicates it’s time to go and resharpen).

I’ve pretty much run out of fronds for today, so I resharpened and tried in some older drier wood and some banana palms. This machete was always a laser in banana, but the SE again bit deeper more easily - situating itself then driving deep with zero deflection, whereas the PE tends to hit then slide (like a saw) losing some of its inertia and penetration depth.

These are just early tests and I appreciate they are far from perfect conditions (the SE section is right near the tip with maximum impact force), but I’m pleasantly surprised. I don’t expect it to cut as well in thicker dry hardwood, but I wouldn’t choose this tool for that anyway. I’ve got a ficus lyrata to pollard tomorrow weather permitting, so that will give me a few hundred cuts in finger to three finger thick green wood as a test.

Fun fun!

[Naperville]

Ok, so round 1 of initial testing seems promising with SE. The bite on fibrous materials like coconut frond (which can be pretty challenging to cut, especially once your PE tool loses its initial razor edge) is impressive. The teeth seem to situate the blade and limit deflection, which in turn appears to equate into more energy directed into the direction of the cut and less side to side or sliding (think axe vs saw).

IMG_5513.jpeg

This was after 250 hacking cuts it was still cutting cleanly through with one low effort strike. The PE section of the blade next to the SE was barely penetrating by this point. Both sections of blade had lost their initial aggression (coarse edge from 240CW SC) but the SE was functionally operational still, whereas the PE was deflecting in the cut to follow the grain after the initial 45-ish degree strikes at about the middle of the frond (something that usually indicates it’s time to go and resharpen).

IMG_5514.jpeg

I’ve pretty much run out of fronds for today, so I resharpened and tried in some older drier wood and some banana palms. This machete was always a laser in banana, but the SE again bit deeper more easily - situating itself then driving deep with zero deflection, whereas the PE tends to hit then slide (like a saw) losing some of its inertia and penetration depth.

These are just early tests and I appreciate they are far from perfect conditions (the SE section is right near the tip with maximum impact force), but I’m pleasantly surprised. I don’t expect it to cut as well in thicker dry hardwood, but I wouldn’t choose this tool for that anyway. I’ve got a ficus lyrata to pollard tomorrow weather permitting, so that will give me a few hundred cuts in finger to three finger thick green wood as a test.

Fun fun!

Will Spyderco release the Holy Grail of Fixed Blades, a fully serrated 16 inch long stainless machete?

[Evil D]

If you search there was an incident involving a Rock Salt and a coconut that did not end well. Maybe chopping a coconut is asking too much?

viewtopic.php?p=550757#p550757
This was back before I knew how to chop into a coconut. But the fact that the edge deformed up into the hollow-grind after a poor strike on a coconut is concerning for use of H1 as a heavy duty chopper, in my opinion.

Yeah I'm sort of in-between the mentalities of knowing how to use an edge properly to avoid damage vs the steel/design being strong enough to handle being used improperly.

[JoviAl]

Ok, so round 1 of initial testing seems promising with SE. The bite on fibrous materials like coconut frond (which can be pretty challenging to cut, especially once your PE tool loses its initial razor edge) is impressive. The teeth seem to situate the blade and limit deflection, which in turn appears to equate into more energy directed into the direction of the cut and less side to side or sliding (think axe vs saw).

IMG_5513.jpeg

This was after 250 hacking cuts it was still cutting cleanly through with one low effort strike. The PE section of the blade next to the SE was barely penetrating by this point. Both sections of blade had lost their initial aggression (coarse edge from 240CW SC) but the SE was functionally operational still, whereas the PE was deflecting in the cut to follow the grain after the initial 45-ish degree strikes at about the middle of the frond (something that usually indicates it’s time to go and resharpen).

IMG_5514.jpeg

I’ve pretty much run out of fronds for today, so I resharpened and tried in some older drier wood and some banana palms. This machete was always a laser in banana, but the SE again bit deeper more easily - situating itself then driving deep with zero deflection, whereas the PE tends to hit then slide (like a saw) losing some of its inertia and penetration depth.

These are just early tests and I appreciate they are far from perfect conditions (the SE section is right near the tip with maximum impact force), but I’m pleasantly surprised. I don’t expect it to cut as well in thicker dry hardwood, but I wouldn’t choose this tool for that anyway. I’ve got a ficus lyrata to pollard tomorrow weather permitting, so that will give me a few hundred cuts in finger to three finger thick green wood as a test.

Fun fun!

Will Spyderco release the Holy Grail of Fixed Blades, a fully serrated 16 inch long stainless machete?

I’ve iterated a bit after finishing work today. I had a bit of free time so I completely reground all the serrations with my belt grinder -

Each serration is push cutting paper now and nicely deburred, ready for tomorrow’s frivolities.

I also now have a newfound respect for makers that add beautifully even serrations by hand - that is tricky!

[Fireman]

Don't take these too seriously - these are 2 minute sketches. Just some quick visuals.

Jumpmaster handle (at scale) with a 15" drop point blade


Quick take on a bush machete, or latin style machete, with a slightly dropped tip and wider belly radius. 15.8" blade


Drop point style 15.3" blade


Seax style 15.8" blade

Take that last Seax one and make it double edge so you get the straight and curved edges but you need a bi directional handle I would want two different edge angles. One for slashing and one for chopping

[Red Leader]

Don't take these too seriously - these are 2 minute sketches. Just some quick visuals.

Jumpmaster handle (at scale) with a 15" drop point blade


Quick take on a bush machete, or latin style machete, with a slightly dropped tip and wider belly radius. 15.8" blade


Drop point style 15.3" blade


Seax style 15.8" blade

Those all look very promising! I appreciate the use of the JM2 handle! It would for sure keep costs down if able to reuse existing molds for scales.

[sal]

I don't think we have any existing molds that would work. The Jumpmaster scales do not have a very long "hook". Hey Al, Do you think they would work?

I'd like to hear more about these serrations?

sal

[JoviAl]

Don't take these too seriously - these are 2 minute sketches. Just some quick visuals.

Jumpmaster handle (at scale) with a 15" drop point blade


Quick take on a bush machete, or latin style machete, with a slightly dropped tip and wider belly radius. 15.8" blade


Drop point style 15.3" blade


Seax style 15.8" blade

Take that last Seax one and make it double edge so you get the straight and curved edges but you need a bi directional handle I would want two different edge angles. One for slashing and one for chopping

That’s an innovative idea for sure. In practice we often put our hands on the back of the blade and push if we’re splitting long thin things like bamboo, but it wouldn’t be difficult to just remove the sharpened edge we didn’t want with a file or belt grinder.

[JoviAl]

I don't think we have any existing molds that would work. The Jumpmaster scales do not have a very long "hook". Hey Al, Do you think they would work?

I'd like to hear more about these serrations?

sal

Morning Sal,

Here’s a few comparison shots against the best of the rest that I use -

The potential issue with the JM2 handle is not so much its hook as how thin it is (in girth), which could be mitigated with spacer plates underneath the JM2 scales. For a big heavy chopper a longer handle is great, but for a lighter weight machete it’s more the employment of a light snappy wrist action rather than a ferocious grip for hard chopping, so an extra long handle is not a deal breaker unless you want to avoid stooping to reach things low down (like sugar cane).

As for serrations, I’m trying to emulate a similar end result to your seki pointy scallops for strength and maximum penetration. They seem to stop the blade sliding in the cut, which in turn seems to transfer a marked amount more energy into the cut. It’s not a pretty cut, but it’s deep and straight with minimal deflection due to edge degradation.

[Fireman]

Don't take these too seriously - these are 2 minute sketches. Just some quick visuals.

Jumpmaster handle (at scale) with a 15" drop point blade


Quick take on a bush machete, or latin style machete, with a slightly dropped tip and wider belly radius. 15.8" blade


Drop point style 15.3" blade


Seax style 15.8" blade

Take that last Seax one and make it double edge so you get the straight and curved edges but you need a bi directional handle I would want two different edge angles. One for slashing and one for chopping

That’s an innovative idea for sure. In practice we often put our hands on the back of the blade and push if we’re splitting long thin things like bamboo, but it wouldn’t be difficult to just remove the sharpened edge we didn’t want with a file or belt grinder.

One good thing would be that you would have two edges that you’d have to dull before you need to sharpen it and if something was going to dull it, you use the chopping edge. The flat grind slashing edge would obviously sink deeper, but if the chopping edge had convex edge, it would withstand more abuse and could chip out harder woods to clean the cut area.

[vivi]

I'll cast my vote for single edge machete. I like gripping the back when using them as draw knives to de-bark branches for hiking sticks etc.

Jovial, those middle two handles look nice in your comparison. I think the JM2 handle would be a little thin, short and abrasive myself. What makes a good small fixed blade handle isn't always the same as what makes a good machete or chopper handle.

[Fireman]

I understand a double edge would not be for everyone being different but also stand out in the market. As said, it could be made to be dull quite easily or you just sharpen it yourself. Another way to do the double edge would be to have a plain edge side and a serrated side.

[JoviAl]

Jovial, those middle two handles look nice in your comparison. I think the JM2 handle would be a little thin, short and abrasive myself. What makes a good small fixed blade handle isn't always the same as what makes a good machete or chopper handle.

I hear that I’ve just taken down a 10ft juvenile king coconut palm and a mature 9ft tall banana palm with my serrated machete and while it was excellent at the cutting part, the smaller micarta handle was really hard work to keep hold of now the blade abruptly bites rather than slides. The JM2 handle has enough hook for me, but a slightly more roomy one with more girth like the Silkys in the middle below would have been way easier to keep hold of.

Here’s a few pics from the coconut removal - it ranged from about 5 inches at its thinnest (once I’d lopped the top off down to about a yard from the floor) to about 14 inches at the base. Quite a homogeneous material. It yielded a cut tally of 311 before I ran out of stump, then I did a harvested mature banana palm just to see if it would still cut cleanly. Total cuts before it started to deflect (indicating the working edge failing) - 428. That’s pretty good for a light duty machete in my frame of reference. Normally this machete would need resharpening at around the 250-300 mark with its original plain edge.

[JoviAl]

NB - by deflect, I mean it would turn in the cut like a small case ‘r’ (Not bounce off what I’m cutting).

[Red Leader]

My primary interest in the JM2 handle was mostly as a cost-saving measure, since the time to develop a new set of handle scales and molds probably involves untold amounts of R&D and tool & die costs.

Any other 'already used before' scale shapes that could work?

[zhyla]

Nice work on the palms. I imagine no damage to the serrations from that material.

Agree on the handle needing a bit of a hook to be efficient/reliable.

For funsies I’m attaching an entertaining Imacasa machete, a 28” Latin style which they market as El Terminador — Spanish for the Terminator. Note the T-1000 arm in the label.

28” is somewhat awkward for a lot of things. But the blade is moving so much faster (twice the speed of a a 14” machete) that you can reach out and just tap at 1” bamboo at it jumps off the stalk. I never really had enough of a yard to really swing this.

[JoviAl]

My primary interest in the JM2 handle was mostly as a cost-saving measure, since the time to develop a new set of handle scales and molds probably involves untold amounts of R&D and tool & die costs.

Any other 'already used before' scale shapes that could work?

The Temperance handle is much more rounded and has no hotspots that I’ve noticed in use. If it was something a bit more compliant than hard plastic (some sort of injection moulded rubber maybe?) then it would be a pretty decent option. The downside of these is that they aren’t especially long, but I kind of wonder if something could be made like recurve ice climbing axes often have, essentially a double handle with two different angles.

[JoviAl]

This is what I mean, although not an exact copy -