Help me defend "super steel" again

[JayHenMac]

Anyone that would make comments like this probably isn't worth spending your effort to educate. Let them be content with their 440 steel and Arkansas stone.

Hey now. Don't go trashing my Arkansas stones!

[vivi]

nothin wrong with 440 series, or even 420 series. They're a pleasure to use IMO. I have no qualms about EDCing a base Buck 110 when it comes to cutting performance.

[Bill1170]

Life is so much more satisfying when you limit your teaching efforts to people who want to learn what you have to teach them.

[Wolf Hedegaard]

Since there is no real definition of super steel it is hard to defend a concept only in someone’s mind.

Exactly.

“Super steel, just like “surgical steel”, is a marketing term and nothing more.

I dislike the term as it’s all a bit silly.

[Evil D]

nothin wrong with 440 series, or even 420 series. They're a pleasure to use IMO. I have no qualms about EDCing a base Buck 110 when it comes to cutting performance.

It's not that there's anything wrong with them, the wrong is in the mind of someone that thinks everything beyond those steels is a waste of time or only hype or whatever. You could flip this conversation around and I'd be defending those steels, because I subscribe to Sal's attitude of "all good, just different".

[vivi]

nothin wrong with 440 series, or even 420 series. They're a pleasure to use IMO. I have no qualms about EDCing a base Buck 110 when it comes to cutting performance.

It's not that there's anything wrong with them, the wrong is in the mind of someone that thinks everything beyond those steels is a waste of time or only hype or whatever. You could flip this conversation around and I'd be defending those steels, because I subscribe to Sal's attitude of "all good, just different".

eh. you know how a lot of folks seem to poo poo on the idea of people needing super corrosion resistant or rust proof steels?

That's how I feel about the high edge retention steels.

They're cool. I've used many of them. I appreciate them as both a user and just seeing companies push the envelope.

But I also know a 420hc pocket knife is sufficient for just about everyones --needs--.

Now, I don't care if someone would rather carry S110V or something instead, but I don't think I've written anything unrealistic here.

I don't think super steels are just hype. But I also view it like I do commuting on 25mph city streets in a lambo. If that's what you wanna do, good for you, but we all know you could get by in an accord. Just like an office worker doesn't need to EDC maxamet to get by.

[Doc Dan]

I think steels are either suited or unsuited to what a person wants, not good or bad.

[sal]

Let's take another perspective;

I'm a car guy, especially high performance cars. Wouldn't it be great to own a stable of high performance cars, drive a different one each day, put it through it's paces and learn first hand. Unfortunately, it's challenging for obvious reasons.

I'm a sailor, especially small high performance boats. wouldn't it be great to have a stable of small boats, sail a different one each day and learn first hand. Again, a challenging "Real World" situation.

I'm a gun guy, especially hand guns. Wouldn't it be great to have a safe full of different hand guns, use a different one each day to learn first hand. More possible, but still challenging.

So, as a knife guy, especially edges and steels, it is possible to actually use the different steels and see the pros and cons of each one. You are all interested in knives or you wouldn't be on this forum. Maybe even a little OCD? The blade steel is the heart of a knife.

Vivi, maybe a 4020-J2 blade will work for many, but sharpening is part of that "Knife Afi" stuff. Even a 420-J2 blade has to be sharpened to be useful. Most folks can't even sharpen a knife. You had the interest and opportunity to be able to use and test all of these different blade steels and determine for yourself what works best for you. You were able to gain that knowledge because some companies bothered to produce the "exotic" materials and make them available for you.

Just some thoughts to share.

sal

[sal]

Hi Wolf,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

[Evil D]

Edge retention (and by extension "super steels") for me is another one of those "better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it" things.

[Mage7]

Edge retention (and by extension "super steels") for me is another one of those "better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it" things.

Well, and then even "edge retention" can lead you astray. I mean, now days everyone knows a more acute edge angle means more edge retention, right? That was pretty counterintuitive because for years people have been saying to increase the edge angle. Except when you really examine what's being said, some people are talking about edge retention in terms of something like the CATRA test, and some people are talking about things which are more akin to edge-stability, but each think they're talking about the same thing and disagreeing on how to achieve it. I mean, the disconnect becomes apparent when someone says, "Well, if I grind this thin blade to 10 degrees instead of 20, it will cut through cardboard for longer," because what they're actually explaining is that a thin wedge will wedge better. It doesn't become apparent that some people are talking about the ability of the very apex to operate as a wedge on a microscopic level until someone says, "Well, how many TCC did it complete before it could stop whittling hair?" and it becomes evident that each characteristic isn't entirely controlled by the same set of factors. You end up with a situation where some people realize that a very acute edge is going to keep cutting through material just by virtue of it remaining very narrow, while other people realize that the very apex can't stay stable enough to remain thin enough to bisect hair, but both are referred to as "edge retention".

I guess another way to frame that would be with corrosion resistance. Because most people would assume that only means rust on the surface, and not consider it much of a functional hindrance. Except, as Larrin's tests on Knife Steel Nerds showed, that corrosion can also effect "edge-retention" too.

I mean, I can appreciate minimalism, but I don't find myself too impressed when someone tells me they've ground their 440A knife down so thin that it could cut just as much cardboard as my 15V knife. I understand it demonstrates that geometry controls for that metric of edge-retention more than steel composition, but if I wanted something that was super good at cutting boxes and not much else, I'd have bought a box cutter. The point is that I would be able to then take my 15V blade and cut anything else, whereas the 440A blade would be ground so thin as to then lessen its utility.

Or, put another way... I once saw a video of some guy that tuned out his mini-van so it beat a Viper off the line in a drag race. That's cool and all, but I wonder what driving the kids to soccer and getting groceries was like after that mod.

[tokenentry]

As Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously stated and should be restated to the online knife guy who said super steals can't be maintained in the field, “You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.”

Case in point and a link you should send him to show that Rex 121, a super steel, has no problem getting sharp with a WorkSharp field sharpener.

[sal]

Hi Mage7,

I would also add that corrosion will attack the edge first because it's exposed on two sides.

Hi Tokenentry,

Welcome to our forum.

I would add that Spyderco makes a variety of field sharpeners that will also work well in the field, including on serrations.

sal

[Actinolite]

I damaged the tip of a knife with Magnacut steel—no, not a Spyderco, but Italian and supposed to have an HRC of 63 or so. While this isn’t a super-edge retention steel, I still was pleased that I could restore it easily and fairly quickly with good quality, ceramic whetstones. I used the #320 to reshape the tip and blend it to the belly, then I used #1000, 2000, and 5000 before stropping with standard green compound on leather. It turned out fine.

I’ve also used the same stones on K390 with good results. Now, however, I have a new challenge. I was testing out a new Mule Team in K294 by cutting up some double-thick cardboard. I hit a staple I hadn’t seen and chipped the edge. Next week, I’ll tackle the K294 with Shapton ceramic whetstones. If those don’t work, I’ll switch to diamond. But I’ll post results.

[Actinolite]

I damaged the tip of a knife with Magnacut steel—no, not a Spyderco, but Italian and supposed to have an HRC of 63 or so. Etc.

My point with the this post was to point out not all “supersteels” are equal. I’m certain that Maxamet and Rex121 cannot be sharpened with ceramic or water stones, but many other steels, including Magnacut, are surprisingly easy to sharpen.

[sal]

Hi Actinolite,

I've had no trouble maintaining an edge on REX-121 with ceramic.

sal

[vivi]

Let's take another perspective;

I'm a car guy, especially high performance cars. Wouldn't it be great to own a stable of high performance cars, drive a different one each day, put it through it's paces and learn first hand. Unfortunately, it's challenging for obvious reasons.

I'm a sailor, especially small high performance boats. wouldn't it be great to have a stable of small boats, sail a different one each day and learn first hand. Again, a challenging "Real World" situation.

I'm a gun guy, especially hand guns. Wouldn't it be great to have a safe full of different hand guns, use a different one each day to learn first hand. More possible, but still challenging.

So, as a knife guy, especially edges and steels, it is possible to actually use the different steels and see the pros and cons of each one. You are all interested in knives or you wouldn't be on this forum. Maybe even a little OCD? The blade steel is the heart of a knife.

Vivi, maybe a 4020-J2 blade will work for many, but sharpening is part of that "Knife Afi" stuff. Even a 420-J2 blade has to be sharpened to be useful. Most folks can't even sharpen a knife. You had the interest and opportunity to be able to use and test all of these different blade steels and determine for yourself what works best for you. You were able to gain that knowledge because some companies bothered to produce the "exotic" materials and make them available for you.

Just some thoughts to share.

sal

That's one of the reasons I enjoy knives, books and video games as hobbies. I can enjoy the things I want from each realm for a very modest price.

I like sports cars too, but just owning and maintaining one high performance vehicle is expensive enough.

I did work for a multi millionare that had a stable of cars. In addition to the expected ferraris and lambos, he had a UK themed mini cooper, decked out Jeep Rubicon, some high end porches, etc. It was always fun seeing what he drove in. Real down to earth guy for what he was worth. Talked to everyone and genuinely listened, even dishwashers, maids etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful to have gotten to try out all the steels I have. Most of which you and your crew made possible for me. Talkin strictly Spydercos I've tried VG10, S30V, S60V, S90V, S110V, CPMD2, ZDP189, BD1, BD1N, K390, BG42, H1, LC200N, Cruwear, M4, 4V, Rex45, ATS55, 52100, GIN1, 154CM, N690Co, 8Cr13MoV, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting.

I've enjoyed the journey, even if in the end I decided something like 420HC, BD1 or VG10 is perfectly fine for my needs most the time.

I like steels that are cheap and sharpen up to high degrees of sharpness easily. The high edge retention monsters are cool, but I just don't have a need for them as much as I do corrosion resistance and to a lesser degree toughness.

I also appreciate stability at low edge angles. High hardness seems to help there, but increased carbide volume seems to have the opposite effect.

Maybe I'll check out the 15V Military for fun, but as it stands I'm happy with my S30V version.

Thanks again for producing that knife by the way. Eric did a fantastic job. I have no desire to clip anything else to my pocket these days. I was flirting with other brands a lot in 2024 but the Military 2 sucked me back into the fold.

[sal]

Thanx much Vivi. We appreciate you presence here. Sharing knowledge is something this forum is known for. "We are all Teachers and we are all Students". Actually, you are a great group of which I'm proud o be a part of.

sal

[cabfrank]

We're proud to be part of your pack too, sal. Thanks.

[Bill1170]

We're proud to be part of your pack too, sal. Thanks.

Yes, same here.