Salt 2 LC200 questions

[ladybug93]

I’ve seen results for LC200N edge-holding from below VG-10 to at or above S30V. TBH, edge-holding results are almost certain to vary in real-world use.

Jim

and that range is more than enough for most people. our grandparents got by with far worse. some of us did too. the first knife i carried daily was aus8 and i carried it for years before i sharpened it. granted, i used it less than i use my current edc, but the point stands that this is an acceptable range for most people.

[awa54]

It's not that LC200N is "good enough", it actually strikes me as one of the best (somewhat) readily available stainless steel as far as edge stability goes and among the easiest to get really great edges on. As much as extended edge retention is a great feature, acceptable edge holding in a steel that's quick and easy to bring back to excellent sharpness is almost as "good" and often easier to live with.

[James Y]

I’ve seen results for LC200N edge-holding from below VG-10 to at or above S30V. TBH, edge-holding results are almost certain to vary in real-world use.

Jim

and that range is more than enough for most people. our grandparents got by with far worse. some of us did too. the first knife i carried daily was aus8 and i carried it for years before i sharpened it. granted, i used it less than i use my current edc, but the point stands that this is an acceptable range for most people.

I started carrying pocketknives in the ‘70s and made do with “far lesser” steels. From the mid-‘80s to the late ‘90s, my only EDC was a Victorinox Spartan SAK, and it served me very well. LC200N and VG-10 hold an edge longer than Victorinox’s steel, yet I still love and use my SAKs along with my Spydercos.

TBH, I’d rather have a steel that holds an edge well enough and is easy to resharpen, than a steel that “holds an edge forever” but can be finicky to resharpen. I’ve read posts on BF where people who favor “supersteels” have said that that after every day’s use, they are compelled to touch up the edge, whether it needs it or not, because they’re worried about the blade losing its edge and becoming a bear to resharpen. So then what’s the difference between that and using a blade with lower wear resistance? If anything, the latter will require fewer touchups, because there isn’t the worry around the inevitable resharpening.

Jim

[ladybug93]

I’ve seen results for LC200N edge-holding from below VG-10 to at or above S30V. TBH, edge-holding results are almost certain to vary in real-world use.

Jim

and that range is more than enough for most people. our grandparents got by with far worse. some of us did too. the first knife i carried daily was aus8 and i carried it for years before i sharpened it. granted, i used it less than i use my current edc, but the point stands that this is an acceptable range for most people.

I started carrying pocketknives in the ‘70s and made do with “far lesser” steels. From the mid-‘80s to the late ‘90s, my only EDC was a Victorinox Spartan SAK, and it served me very well. LC200N and VG-10 hold an edge longer than Victorinox’s steel, yet I still love and use my SAKs along with my Spydercos.

TBH, I’d rather have a steel that holds an edge well enough and is easy to resharpen, than a steel that “holds an edge forever” but can be finicky to resharpen. I’ve read posts on BF where people who favor “supersteels” have said that that after every day’s use, they are compelled to touch up the edge, whether it needs it or not, because they’re worried about the blade losing its edge and becoming a bear to resharpen. So then what’s the difference between that and using a blade with lower wear resistance? If anything, the latter will require fewer touchups, because there isn’t the worry around the inevitable resharpening.

Jim

same here. i love my saks. i think the biggest issue for me is that i don't want to pay $100+ for a knife that holds an edge like a $30 knife. the knife would have to have some kind of special properties. i suppose this is why i love the salt line so much. i don't want a manix in some uncommon tool steel that rusts and is easy to sharpen. i want a knife that, as you said, holds an edge alright, is easy to sharpen, and isn't going to rust on me just from using it.

[asdfghjkl]

I dyed my Native 5 Salt pure black and it worked well but now all the corners are showing yellow. It works, but its not a permanent fix.

[tonijedi]

I’ve seen results for LC200N edge-holding from below VG-10 to at or above S30V. TBH, edge-holding results are almost certain to vary in real-world use.

Jim

and that range is more than enough for most people. our grandparents got by with far worse. some of us did too. the first knife i carried daily was aus8 and i carried it for years before i sharpened it. granted, i used it less than i use my current edc, but the point stands that this is an acceptable range for most people.

I started carrying pocketknives in the ‘70s and made do with “far lesser” steels. From the mid-‘80s to the late ‘90s, my only EDC was a Victorinox Spartan SAK, and it served me very well. LC200N and VG-10 hold an edge longer than Victorinox’s steel, yet I still love and use my SAKs along with my Spydercos.

TBH, I’d rather have a steel that holds an edge well enough and is easy to resharpen, than a steel that “holds an edge forever” but can be finicky to resharpen. I’ve read posts on BF where people who favor “supersteels” have said that that after every day’s use, they are compelled to touch up the edge, whether it needs it or not, because they’re worried about the blade losing its edge and becoming a bear to resharpen. So then what’s the difference between that and using a blade with lower wear resistance? If anything, the latter will require fewer touchups, because there isn’t the worry around the inevitable resharpening.

Jim

same here. i love my saks. i think the biggest issue for me is that i don't want to pay $100+ for a knife that holds an edge like a $30 knife. the knife would have to have some kind of special properties. i suppose this is why i love the salt line so much. i don't want a manix in some uncommon tool steel that rusts and is easy to sharpen. i want a knife that, as you said, holds an edge alright, is easy to sharpen, and isn't going to rust on me just from using it.

I totally agree with this line of thinking.

[Wartstein]

same here. i love my saks. i think the biggest issue for me is that i don't want to pay $100+ for a knife that holds an edge like a $30 knife. the knife would have to have some kind of special properties. i suppose this is why i love the salt line so much. i don't want a manix in some uncommon tool steel that rusts and is easy to sharpen. [highlight=yellow]i want a knife that, as you said, holds an edge alright, is easy to sharpen, and isn't going to rust on me just from using it.
[/highlight]

Agreed... kind of

I love VG10 and S30V, cause they hold an edge well enough, are easy to sharpen and for me are practically rustproof, despite I use these steels a lot in wet, sweaty, outdoor conditions. So for me these steels DO already what LC200N does for others (rustproof, easy to sharpen, ok enough edge holding). And since especially Larrins findings pretty much convinced me that LC200N is below VG10, S30V and even BD1N in edge holding I naturally prefer the three former.
LC200N must be a perfect steel for those who still DO have rust problems even with steels like VG10 and so on. For me, though I like LC, it does not offer a real benefit.

As for the tool steels: I was afraid that the edge holding of my REX45 Manix would perhaps be impaired by slow edge degradation due to rust. But this does not seem to be the case (I don´t live on a marine/salty environment though!)
And since I actually really like patina and even rust specs on tool steel blades, I clearly prefer something like REX45 over something like LC.

Again, LC200N is certainly a great steel, but if I was Spydercos only customer it still would be totally redundant (in MY use) and I´d always take VG10, S30V... over it.

[vivi]

same here. i love my saks. i think the biggest issue for me is that i don't want to pay $100+ for a knife that holds an edge like a $30 knife. the knife would have to have some kind of special properties. i suppose this is why i love the salt line so much. i don't want a manix in some uncommon tool steel that rusts and is easy to sharpen. [highlight=yellow]i want a knife that, as you said, holds an edge alright, is easy to sharpen, and isn't going to rust on me just from using it.
[/highlight]

Agreed... kind of

I love VG10 and S30V, cause they hold an edge well enough, are easy to sharpen and for me are practically rustproof, despite I use these steels a lot in wet, sweaty, outdoor conditions. So for me these steels DO already what LC200N does for others (rustproof, easy to sharpen, ok enough edge holding). And since especially Larrins findings pretty much convinced me that LC200N is below VG10, S30V and even BD1N in edge holding I naturally prefer the three former.
LC200N must be a perfect steel for those who still DO have rust problems even with steels like VG10 and so on. For me, though I like LC, it does not offer a real benefit.

As for the tool steels: I was afraid that the edge holding of my REX45 Manix would perhaps be impaired by slow edge degradation due to rust. But this does not seem to be the case (I don´t live on a marine/salty environment though!)
And since I actually really like patina and even rust specs on tool steel blades, I clearly prefer something like REX45 over something like LC.

Again, LC200N is certainly a great steel, but if I was Spydercos only customer it still would be totally redundant (in MY use) and I´d always take VG10, S30V... over it.

FWIW I find LC on par with VG10 in every respect. There isn't anything VG10 does better than LC in my opinion. I find LC more corrosion resistant and a touch easier to sharpen while offering equal toughness and edge holding (if not better).

I would not put LC edge holding up there with S30V, but I can't tell a difference between VG10 and LC here.

I view LC like a rust proof 1095. It won't win any edge holding competitions, but it's tough, takes a great edge with ease, isn't super exotic / expensive and holds an edge well enough for any general purpose role I have.

[Wartstein]

[/highlight]

FWIW I find LC on par with VG10 in every respect. There isn't anything VG10 does better than LC in my opinion. I find LC more corrosion resistant and a touch easier to sharpen while offering equal toughness and edge holding (if not better).

I would not put LC edge holding up there with S30V, but I can't tell a difference between VG10 and LC here.

I view LC like a rust proof 1095. It won't win any edge holding competitions, but it's tough, takes a great edge with ease, isn't super exotic / expensive and holds an edge well enough for any general purpose role I have.

If LC is on par with VG10 in every respect (and of course I trust your greater than mine experience here!) so if really everything is the same: Probably as the very last deciding factor I would take the even better rust proofness of LC and choose it over VG 10.
But really just then. Since VG10 IS practically totally rustproof for me, I´d take it over LC even if VG10 had just a tiny amount of better edge holding, a tad better "sharpenability" or whatever.

It is a bit like: If you´d need a pack for heavy loads up to lets say 120 pounds, and there would be a pack that could easily handle 250 pounds and another that could handle even 300, but the latter would be heavier itself and perhaps a tad more uncomfortable to carry, you´d probably go with the former

[skeeg11]

If a knife is made in America, given the choice of steel, I would choose LC200N. We would be paying an upcharge to use VG-10 in American made knives. Conversely, Japanese knife makers pay an upcharge to use LC200N in their knives which in turn is passed on to an American consumer even though the LC200N may be sourced from the same place as the Golden plant. Something to think about. One of the reasons I am so looking forward to the up coming US made UKPK Salt.

[tonijedi]

If a knife is made in America, given the choice of steel, I would choose LC200N. We would be paying an upcharge to use VG-10 in American made knives. Conversely, Japanese knife makers pay an upcharge to use LC200N in their knives which in turn is passed on to an American consumer even though the LC200N may be sourced from the same place as the Golden plant. Something to think about. One of the reasons I am so looking forward to the up coming US made UKPK Salt.

But LC is made in EU...

[awa54]

My experience with trimming the remains of the cutoff attachment on lathe turned hardwood has shown me that LC200N resists chipping and rolling when making this sort of demanding cross-grain cut, where Moki made VG-10 chipped badly in the same use. In fairness to VG-10, I believe that Sakai has a slightly different heat treat and falls in between the Moki example and LC as far as toughness.

That's why I feel like VG-10 is a solid "good enough" steel but LC200N is a meaningful step up. If AEB-L was available in a Delica pattern blade, I'd gladly use it as well for the same reasons.

[Wartstein]

My experience with trimming the remains of the cutoff attachment on lathe turned hardwood has shown me that LC200N resists chipping and rolling when making this sort of demanding cross-grain cut, where Moki made VG-10 chipped badly in the same use. In fairness to VG-10, I believe that Sakai has a slightly different heat treat and falls in between the Moki example and LC as far as toughness.

That's why I feel like VG-10 is a solid "good enough" steel but LC200N is a meaningful step up. If AEB-L was available in a Delica pattern blade, I'd gladly use it as well for the same reasons.

Concerning my comments above: Of course I "don´t mind" the even-better-than - corrosion resistance of LC! This would be really silly, if I take a stainless steel anyway.
And if I ever get the impression that VG10 tends to chip and roll, while LC does not, I´d certainly take the latter even if it had a bit lower edge retention (which it has in Larrins testings, but who knows how this looks in real life with perhaps a bit different heat treatments than he had for testing or whatever).
VG10 (and also S30V) are fine though in my us so far concerning chipping and rolling.

Anyway, let me be clear: I think LC is an amazing steel, given how very well it performs and is still totally rustproof!! A great innovation for the many who need or just like that high level of corrosion resistance!
But for me personally: VG10 "is like LC already" when it comes to corrosion resistance. Though for example in a knife that I let live as a backup in a pack (that gets wet frequently) and perhaps never even touch, let alone use and sharpen it for one year or so, LC would be a perfect choice (and better than VG10, S30V...) for me too!

[awa54]

Making cross-grain cuts, twisting cuts or using the tip for detail work in wood that's as hard or harder than hard maple, will quickly show you which steels have the best edge stability... in that sort of use the LC in my Caribbean is closer to low alloy carbon steels than to most other stainless (softer stainless steels will roll edges, or just dull very quickly and higher carbide steels chip). I actually use folding EDC knives for this sort of work from time to time, so that extra edge stability is something I appreciate.

[David R]

I'm yet to try LC200N, but Cedric and Ada rate LC very high on their cut tests:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/ ... 1607644856

Yes, above Cruwear,S30V...

The numbers from Pete's tests can be misleading unless you look at the details. S30V includes tests from factory edges and tests on different sharpeners. Pete's KME and Worksharp edges all perform worse than KME edges on the same knives. And of course geometry is the biggest factor. Maybe a correlation of Pete's tests with to thickness behind the edge would help(?), but he's not measuring that so we don't have the data. Heat treatment is a factor as well.

Pete does a great job and I appreciate him, but I look at his results as more of an overall trend as opposed to an absolute ranking of steel edge retention.

[tonijedi]

I'm yet to try LC200N, but Cedric and Ada rate LC very high on their cut tests:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/ ... 1607644856

Yes, above Cruwear,S30V...

The numbers from Pete's tests can be misleading unless you look at the details. S30V includes tests from factory edges and tests on different sharpeners. Pete's KME and Worksharp edges all perform worse than KME edges on the same knives. And of course geometry is the biggest factor. Maybe a correlation of Pete's tests with to thickness behind the edge would help(?), but he's not measuring that so we don't have the data. Heat treatment is a factor as well.

Pete does a great job and I appreciate him, but I look at his results as more of an overall trend as opposed to an absolute ranking of steel edge retention.

I don't disagree with you.
I know those tests aren't scientific, as they don't isolate the variables. Anedoctal as they are, they show us many things, the first one being that steel doesn't matter that much.

[David R]

I'm yet to try LC200N, but Cedric and Ada rate LC very high on their cut tests:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/ ... 1607644856

Yes, above Cruwear,S30V...

The numbers from Pete's tests can be misleading unless you look at the details. S30V includes tests from factory edges and tests on different sharpeners. Pete's KME and Worksharp edges all perform worse than KME edges on the same knives. And of course geometry is the biggest factor. Maybe a correlation of Pete's tests with to thickness behind the edge would help(?), but he's not measuring that so we don't have the data. Heat treatment is a factor as well.

Pete does a great job and I appreciate him, but I look at his results as more of an overall trend as opposed to an absolute ranking of steel edge retention.

I don't disagree with you.
I know those tests aren't scientific, as they don't isolate the variables. Anedoctal as they are, they show us many things, the first one being that steel doesn't matter that much.

Agree. Edge angle and blade geometry are bigger factors. However, all things being equal, K390 will have ~4x the edge retention of BD1 and ~2x the edge retention of S30 or S35.

In real world use I'm finding that I care more about toughness than edge retention. I most often use the knife I have in my pocket rather than getting a different knife for the material I'm cutting. I'll take 4V or Cru-wear over steels with better edge retention.