The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

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Albatross
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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby Albatross » Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:59 pm

vivi wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:07 pm
I can understand feeling a little down when you realize certain things just aren't going to work for your preferences.

The ATR was a personal favorite, but by the time the ATR 2 came out, which fixed the two things I disliked about the original, I had decided I'd stop buying compression lock knives. They don't keep the knife closed as well as my lifestyle requires.

I am 100% with you on wanting my hand as close to the edge as possible. But I am 0% with you on requiring a choil to get that grip.

Look at a Resilience or Caribbean or Rockjumper. Those essentially get your hand as close to the edge as any choil does. I don't see a downside to those designs.

What makes a knife like that feel like it won't work for you compared to choils?
As close as the edge comes to the handle, there's still an exposed portion of unsharpened steel there, that will catch on things.

With a good choil, the meat of my finger is very close to the blade, and I can use that to guide cuts, prevent catching on material, and get that extra ounce of control over the blade. Looking at how my finger is in relation to the edge on my Shaman, it's in line with the start of the sharpened edge. With the choil being lower than the edge by a few mm, and the little tab at the front of the choil, my finger is still quite safe. I hope that makes sense?

Also, the comfort factor is high on my list. My favorite grip on the P4 is a choked up pinch grip, utilizing the choil. My thumb rests on the shoulder of the G10 in this grip, with my forefinger wrapped around the choil and applying pressure on the other shoulder of the G10. Massive control, excellent ergonomically, and the balance is perfect. Doing this on knives without a choil still works, but the comfort and control are less.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby Albatross » Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:02 pm

Evil D wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:58 pm
Choils just make more sense on some knives and less sense on others. I don't think I'd base this realization on how any of the Mantras feel unless you have really small/thin hands, because it's not quite a full grip handle for me so I definitely understand how it could feel like it needs a choil because my pinky finger is struggling to have a place to grip so if I could just scoot my hand forward and put my index finger somewhere then the rest would feel much roomier.

It's a different story on the Rock Jumper, Caribbean, Tenacious/Resilience. I just don't see what a choil could improve on those.

Another thing is, there's an ergonomic issue with using choils during hard use. The Shaman feels amazing to me when gripping it on the choil, but it really doesn't feel too great trying to really white knuckle grip that choil for harder use, so then I drop back behind the choil and now I'm too far from the edge and and I lose leverage and cutting power. I can't wait to see the choilless Shaman whenever it comes out.

On the other end, I can't imagine a Native 5, Dragonfly, Caly 3, Lava,.... without a choil. Like you said, I'm pretty sure some designs are intended to be gripped on the choil while other models like the Military (to me) feel like an option more than a dedicated grip design. I think most of the struggle with all this is designing a knife that feels "right" when gripped in either position, and for me it's always one or the other that feels better and then the other option is a waste of space on either end of the grip.
Yeah, choils can be an issue with hard use, but if it's hard enough, I'll just grab my cheapo Condor fixed blade, and save my hand.

This is another excuse for me to request a Shaman fixed blade........... without choil. I only want them on my folders anyway.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby Evil D » Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:09 pm

Albatross wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:02 pm
Yeah, choils can be an issue with hard use, but if it's hard enough, I'll just grab my cheapo Condor fixed blade, and save my hand.

This is another excuse for me to request a Shaman fixed blade........... without choil. I only want them on my folders anyway.


Actually I was thinking about that earlier today and I think my knife preferences are basically moving towards a folding fixed blade. It really baffles me why it's almost universally agreed that fixed blades are typically more ergonomic than folders, so why exactly aren't folders made to resemble fixed blades as closely as possible?

Can I just get a Jumpmaster 2 with a pivot and back lock? Obviously the blade needs shortened to fit but make everything else the same.


Yeah I already know, the wafer thin crowd would object but geez can I just have one knife that isn't designed more for pocket carry than it is for hand use?


Actually to answer my own question, I've been looking at the Autonomy 2 more and more because I think it may be the one.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby Albatross » Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:18 pm

Evil D wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:09 pm
Albatross wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:02 pm
Yeah, choils can be an issue with hard use, but if it's hard enough, I'll just grab my cheapo Condor fixed blade, and save my hand.

This is another excuse for me to request a Shaman fixed blade........... without choil. I only want them on my folders anyway.


Actually I was thinking about that earlier today and I think my knife preferences are basically moving towards a folding fixed blade. It really baffles me why it's almost universally agreed that fixed blades are typically more ergonomic than folders, so why exactly aren't folders made to resemble fixed blades as closely as possible?

Can I just get a Jumpmaster 2 with a pivot and back lock? Obviously the blade needs shortened to fit but make everything else the same.


Yeah I already know, the wafer thin crowd would object but geez can I just have one knife that isn't designed more for pocket carry than it is for hand use?


Actually to answer my own question, I've been looking at the Autonomy 2 more and more because I think it may be the one.
I love the rounded handle of the Shaman, and if I'm not mistaken, I think it was meant to bridge the gap between fixed blades and folders. I know Spyderco wants to balance pocket carry, with comfort in hand, but maybe a flash batch, with handle like a fixed blade handle, would be a good way to test the market. Something hand-filling and comfortable to use for any task. Who knows, maybe there's a bigger demand than we realize. I would buy one for sure.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby vivi » Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:31 pm

Albatross wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:59 pm
vivi wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:07 pm
I can understand feeling a little down when you realize certain things just aren't going to work for your preferences.

The ATR was a personal favorite, but by the time the ATR 2 came out, which fixed the two things I disliked about the original, I had decided I'd stop buying compression lock knives. They don't keep the knife closed as well as my lifestyle requires.

I am 100% with you on wanting my hand as close to the edge as possible. But I am 0% with you on requiring a choil to get that grip.

Look at a Resilience or Caribbean or Rockjumper. Those essentially get your hand as close to the edge as any choil does. I don't see a downside to those designs.

What makes a knife like that feel like it won't work for you compared to choils?
As close as the edge comes to the handle, there's still an exposed portion of unsharpened steel there, that will catch on things.

With a good choil, the meat of my finger is very close to the blade, and I can use that to guide cuts, prevent catching on material, and get that extra ounce of control over the blade. Looking at how my finger is in relation to the edge on my Shaman, it's in line with the start of the sharpened edge. With the choil being lower than the edge by a few mm, and the little tab at the front of the choil, my finger is still quite safe. I hope that makes sense?

Also, the comfort factor is high on my list. My favorite grip on the P4 is a choked up pinch grip, utilizing the choil. My thumb rests on the shoulder of the G10 in this grip, with my forefinger wrapped around the choil and applying pressure on the other shoulder of the G10. Massive control, excellent ergonomically, and the balance is perfect. Doing this on knives without a choil still works, but the comfort and control are less.
I can see how you'd feel more in control that way.

I used to run a knife review site and to date I'm the only person I've seen that would consistwntly measure and post the index finger to edge measurement. On knives with a choil I'd do it for both the choil grip and behind the choil grip. It has a direct impact on overall leverage and control, so like you its an important attribute for me to consider.

That being said, when I grip my Police 4 behind the index choil, that is my preferred grip and I feel completely in control.
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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby Cambertree » Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:37 pm

I prefer having a finger choil too - on both folders and smaller fixed blades.

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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby odomandr » Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:52 pm

Albatross wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:04 pm
odomandr wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:17 pm
I am the exact opposite. I cannot get it through my mind to choke up on the blade to put a finger up there. i grew up on slip joints and using the bolster on them or being cautious to not slip my grip off the handle. I love the ikuchi, chef, and centofante and they are my current rotation. Ive got the gb2 & opera on my list. I like an edge to the hilt. I am trying to get used to it on the roadie and something small i understand that is useful. I just havent gotten use to it because i tend to gravitate towards designs without it
For what it's worth, I've never slipped out of a choil. I actually think, despite what my eyes and brain told me prior, that a choil with jimping is more secure than many knife handles are.

Having said that, it sounds like you have a nice lineup and some interesting models on your list, so enjoy your choil-less knives! I am a bit jealous...
I think it's the discomfort as mentioned above in the white knuckle grip on them. The handle is more comfortable for me and so instinct kicks in. I feel the benefit for me is the fine detailed movements when choked up in comparison to using it for leverage. I do choke up on the handle when poking and prodding when I should probably be grabbing some picks or another tool for the task. I agree too that some are just designed with or without. I also will say they add a utilitarian aspect to the design over the aesthetic. I wouldn't let not having one dissuade me from a particular design though.
"Yeah? Well, you know, thats like uh, your opinion, man" - Lebowski

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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby Albatross » Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:05 pm

vivi wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:31 pm
Albatross wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:59 pm
vivi wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:07 pm
I can understand feeling a little down when you realize certain things just aren't going to work for your preferences.

The ATR was a personal favorite, but by the time the ATR 2 came out, which fixed the two things I disliked about the original, I had decided I'd stop buying compression lock knives. They don't keep the knife closed as well as my lifestyle requires.

I am 100% with you on wanting my hand as close to the edge as possible. But I am 0% with you on requiring a choil to get that grip.

Look at a Resilience or Caribbean or Rockjumper. Those essentially get your hand as close to the edge as any choil does. I don't see a downside to those designs.

What makes a knife like that feel like it won't work for you compared to choils?
As close as the edge comes to the handle, there's still an exposed portion of unsharpened steel there, that will catch on things.

With a good choil, the meat of my finger is very close to the blade, and I can use that to guide cuts, prevent catching on material, and get that extra ounce of control over the blade. Looking at how my finger is in relation to the edge on my Shaman, it's in line with the start of the sharpened edge. With the choil being lower than the edge by a few mm, and the little tab at the front of the choil, my finger is still quite safe. I hope that makes sense?

Also, the comfort factor is high on my list. My favorite grip on the P4 is a choked up pinch grip, utilizing the choil. My thumb rests on the shoulder of the G10 in this grip, with my forefinger wrapped around the choil and applying pressure on the other shoulder of the G10. Massive control, excellent ergonomically, and the balance is perfect. Doing this on knives without a choil still works, but the comfort and control are less.
I can see how you'd feel more in control that way.

I used to run a knife review site and to date I'm the only person I've seen that would consistwntly measure and post the index finger to edge measurement. On knives with a choil I'd do it for both the choil grip and behind the choil grip. It has a direct impact on overall leverage and control, so like you its an important attribute for me to consider.

That being said, when I grip my Police 4 behind the index choil, that is my preferred grip and I feel completely in control.
Like I said before, I think both sides (choil/no choil) are after the same thing, just in different ways.

Measuring the distance to the cutting edge seems like very useful information, and I would be willing to bet that there are a lot of people out there, who would use that kind of info to make a purchase. It would be nice to see manufacturers and dealers listing grip to edge distances as well.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby vivi » Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:08 pm

One of the issues I run into with choils with my hand size is the thumb ramps get in my way. Over time I've come to value the ergonomic advantages of being able to extend my thumb more than the leverage benefits of being close to the edge. Hence, I reach for the grip behind the choil on my Police. Designs like the Siren work well for me for this reason, because I'm not ergonomically limited by the thumb ramp hump.
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Military DLC | Police 4 K390 / Pakkawood | Manix XL M4 DLC / Micarta

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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby Albatross » Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:20 pm

vivi wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:08 pm
One of the issues I run into with choils with my hand size is the thumb ramps get in my way. Over time I've come to value the ergonomic advantages of being able to extend my thumb more than the leverage benefits of being close to the edge. Hence, I reach for the grip behind the choil on my Police. Designs like the Siren work well for me for this reason, because I'm not ergonomically limited by the thumb ramp hump.
Choil or no, have you tried the pinch grip? It bypasses the hump completely. I don’t have meaty hands, but I do wear XL gloves, so humps cramp my thumb. Pinch grip on any knife with a hump will make a world of difference, so long as you don't need to use the knife hard.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby vivi » Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:14 pm

Albatross wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:20 pm
vivi wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:08 pm
One of the issues I run into with choils with my hand size is the thumb ramps get in my way. Over time I've come to value the ergonomic advantages of being able to extend my thumb more than the leverage benefits of being close to the edge. Hence, I reach for the grip behind the choil on my Police. Designs like the Siren work well for me for this reason, because I'm not ergonomically limited by the thumb ramp hump.
Choil or no, have you tried the pinch grip? It bypasses the hump completely. I don’t have meaty hands, but I do wear XL gloves, so humps cramp my thumb. Pinch grip on any knife with a hump will make a world of difference, so long as you don't need to use the knife hard.
I use the pinch grip but not in the choil. I generally only use the pinch grip when I'm cutting things on a cutting board, and getting behind the choil gives my fingers more clearance from the cutting board.

Here's a grip break down with my Police:

Image

Standard grip, how I usually hold my knife.

Image

This is how I hold it when whittling, making feathersticks, or when I want extra leverage when cutting something tough, like triple wall cardboard.

Image

The grip you described. I never use this grip.

Image

Cutting board grip. Compared to the grip above I can use more of the cutting edge because I have additional knuckle clearance.

Image

Precision grip. Slicing tape on a box, picking out splinters, etc.

Image

Super precision grip. I don't use this with small folding knives, but if I'm at work I'll sometimes use it with an 8-10" chef knife to do things like remove the core of a tomato.

Image

"Machete" grip. If I'm hiking on a seldom used trail and some briars have grown across the path, I'll grip my folder like this and hack them down, assuming I didn't bring a better tool for the job.

None of this is to say one grip is superior to the other, this is merely to show what I do out of habit.
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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby Albatross » Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:37 pm

vivi wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:14 pm

I use the pinch grip but not in the choil. I generally only use the pinch grip when I'm cutting things on a cutting board, and getting behind the choil gives my fingers more clearance from the cutting board.

Here's a grip break down with my Police:

Image

Standard grip, how I usually hold my knife.

Image

This is how I hold it when whittling, making feathersticks, or when I want extra leverage when cutting something tough, like triple wall cardboard.

Image

The grip you described. I never use this grip.

Image

Cutting board grip. Compared to the grip above I can use more of the cutting edge because I have additional knuckle clearance.

Image

Precision grip. Slicing tape on a box, picking out splinters, etc.

Image

Super precision grip. I don't use this with small folding knives, but if I'm at work I'll sometimes use it with an 8-10" chef knife to do things like remove the core of a tomato.

None of this is to say one grip is superior to the other, this is merely to show what I do out of habit.
Your cutting board grip is the sort of pinch grip I figured you would be more comfortable with, if it worked for your cutting tasks. I definitely wouldn't whittle with that grip, or do any serious work that requires substantial force, but for most edc tasks, it works very well for me.

As you have demonstrated, there are other grips for other needs, but I sure am partial. It probably does help that I don't do a lot of food prep with my folders, because knuckle clearance definitely isn't the best with a choked up pinch grip.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby Wartstein » Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:14 am

vivi wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:14 pm
Albatross wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:20 pm
vivi wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:08 pm
Image

The grip you described. I never use this grip.
Funny, this is exactly the grip I certainly use most often by far on any Spyderco... :D

Finger in the choil or ricasso (or the edge itself should there be none of the former), thumb to the side of the blade
That's why I am not really concerned with thumb ramps, but still like them "indirectly", since the hump makes the blade taller and by that offers more space sideways to put the thumb on the blade...

Reminds me a bit of the discussion in "my" 6 ways to close a CBBL thread: If one has no idea how other people usually close or grip their knives, he might come up with different approaches/methods that work equally well...(in this case: Many people perhaps think the thumb ramp is there purposely in order to be used as a ramp. This might be the case, but it could also be that the ramp in many designs is just an inevitable consequence of the existence of the opening hole)
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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby vivi » Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:25 am

It's fascinating seeing the different ways people choose to operate the same tools.

Ironically, even though I prefer designs with no thumb ramp, I prefer the ease of opening knives with prominent thumb ramps offer. I decided against buying a Native Chief because the opening action didn't feel as good with the more recessed thumb hole compared to my Police. I may give the design another chance some day.

That's also the thing I like best about the Pacific Salt compared to the Siren. In many ways I like the Siren better.....more palm filling grip, FFG, more prominent guard, no thumb ramp to interfere with my grip.....but the more exposed opening hole on the Pacific is a big plus for me.

PS - Is your signature still correct? Or is it time to update it? I'd expect to see a Manix and Endela in there.
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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby Sumdumguy » Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:21 am

I'm the opposite. Originally, a forward choil was one of my requirements.

I have since almost completely eliminated them from my collection. I don't mind them on things like the Dragonfly. But, I have absolutely no use for them on a large knife(I don't mind the Millie's, it's nice)

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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby Evil D » Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:39 am

Albatross wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:59 pm

As close as the edge comes to the handle, there's still an exposed portion of unsharpened steel there, that will catch on things.


From the factory there's a wee bit of unsharpened blade at the heel next to the handle, but at least that can be sharpened. There's nowhere for anything to snag on my Caribbean.

Image


With a choil I have to use my finger as a guide, otherwise the front nose of the choil can snag (I once had a Buck yanked out of my hand cutting plastic off a machine doing exactly this). That Caribbean doesn't out my finger as close to the edge as a choil but the edge is as far back as it can go and the handle keeps my finger away from the material being cut. In some ways it's similar to a choil but I think also way different in other ways, so much that comparing them almost doesn't make sense.
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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby Albatross » Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:18 am

Evil D wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:39 am
Albatross wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:59 pm

As close as the edge comes to the handle, there's still an exposed portion of unsharpened steel there, that will catch on things.


From the factory there's a wee bit of unsharpened blade at the heel next to the handle, but at least that can be sharpened. There's nowhere for anything to snag on my Caribbean.

Image


With a choil I have to use my finger as a guide, otherwise the front nose of the choil can snag (I once had a Buck yanked out of my hand cutting plastic off a machine doing exactly this). That Caribbean doesn't out my finger as close to the edge as a choil but the edge is as far back as it can go and the handle keeps my finger away from the material being cut. In some ways it's similar to a choil but I think also way different in other ways, so much that comparing them almost doesn't make sense.
That's a great angle. The pictures I looked at, appeared to have more of a ricasso. It is close and that knife might work for me. I still prefer being on a choil, but the Caribbean will now be a consideration. Thank you for the close-up.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby Evil D » Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:23 am

Albatross wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:18 am

That's a great angle. The pictures I looked at, appeared to have more of a ricasso. It is close and that knife might work for me. I still prefer being on a choil, but the Caribbean will now be a consideration. Thank you for the close-up.


There is a teeny bit on a brand new knife but at least I can sharpen and blend it in. This is how it looks when new..

Image
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby Albatross » Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:26 am

Wartstein wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:14 am
vivi wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:14 pm
Albatross wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:20 pm
vivi wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:08 pm
Image

The grip you described. I never use this grip.
Funny, this is exactly the grip I certainly use most often by far on any Spyderco... :D

Finger in the choil or ricasso (or the edge itself should there be none of the former), thumb to the side of the blade
That's why I am not really concerned with thumb ramps, but still like them "indirectly", since the hump makes the blade taller and by that offers more space sideways to put the thumb on the blade...

Reminds me a bit of the discussion in "my" 6 ways to close a CBBL thread: If one has no idea how other people usually close or grip their knives, he might come up with different approaches/methods that work equally well...(in this case: Many people perhaps think the thumb ramp is there purposely in order to be used as a ramp. This might be the case, but it could also be that the ramp in many designs is just an inevitable consequence of the existence of the opening hole)
It doesn't offer as much power as a hammer grip, but it also seems more stable than having a thumb on the ramp, plus the fine control is great. It's a balance of cutting abilities that I like.

On the Manix, I have to modify this grip (compared to my other knives with choils), according to what I'm cutting and my mood. It works just as well and is just as comfortable though.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Albatross
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Re: The sad realization that I cannot live without choils...

Postby Albatross » Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:29 am

Evil D wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:23 am
Albatross wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:18 am

That's a great angle. The pictures I looked at, appeared to have more of a ricasso. It is close and that knife might work for me. I still prefer being on a choil, but the Caribbean will now be a consideration. Thank you for the close-up.


There is a teeny bit on a brand new knife but at least I can sharpen and blend it in. This is how it looks when new..

Image
Ok, so my eyes weren't playing tricks on me. That doesn't look like a terrible amount of blending needed though. Thanks again.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal


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