If you don’t want a linerless G10 knife then don’t buy it.... Some of us are excited about a linerless G10 big knife in the lineup.
True and good for you.
Then again, I can only buy so many Militaries (the knife that made me become a Spyderco user). I was excited initially because the Native Chief seemed like a great new large knife platform. In a market where everything has to go either mini-this or mini-that, lw-this or lw-that, it was great to have a new 4" blade + knife-shape, and so I was disappointed that after the initial excitement, this knife is not for me. But OK ... I can deal with it. After all, other companies do make larger knives as well. For example, my new Hinderer is great.
However, just like I respect you for being excited about a new linerless larger G10 knife, I should be allowed to give Spyderco feedback here.
And my feedback is this: it would be great if Spyderco would give us normal-sized knife users a little more attention in the future. The Caribbean last year was great. Going forward, how about a redo of the Manix XL (there is a thread on this every couple of weeks), or continued use of the power-lock, or just generally new >= 4" blade utilitarian designs with liners but without flippers ?
Look at the lack of popularity of the sprint run Native 5 with saber ground S90V/154cm laminate. That one has liners. Impossible to say for sure, by I think the saber grind is what turned most people off. And probably the added weight from the meatier blade and liners.
Ya can't please everyone all of the time.
1000% in for a Fradon lock shredded CF Sabre ground 4v Native Chief!
Seeing that old picture makes me wish they had kept the hollow ground blade. I'm sure FFG will slice better but I like that old school native look. Maybe a sprint will happen one day.
Seeing that old picture makes me wish they had kept the hollow ground blade. I'm sure FFG will slice better but I like that old school native look. Maybe a sprint will happen one day.
The direction this thread took is exactly why I don't post here as often as I used to. I'm reluctant to weigh in but I have some unique insights on this subject that I think would be helpful to my friends here at the forum.
For the record, I'm looking forward to the new Native Chief.
I truly don't understand people saying up front that they don't like it being liner-less before they've ever used it. Whether this knife is stronger, weaker, more durable or less durable because it is liner-less is not a forgone conclusion and is purely a question of engineering. This is not something that one can judge prior to using the actual design. I have had enough conversations with Sal and Peter to know that they take the engineering very seriously and I have absolutely no reason to doubt they have designed a great knife. If it turns out that they didn't engineer it properly (highly doubtful), we can all judge them with actual facts and actual user results if that should be the case. Until then, people saying that going liner-less is just a cost savings measure and implying that this design will be in some manner inferior to a design with liners are just speculating. Let's see how the knife performs. I expect it to be a successful design, but I won't know until I know.
Here's a little background beyond my confidence in the Spyderco team as to why I am optimistic.... A few of you might know I make knives. However, I don't show most of what I do publicly right now and only 2 people here actually know the full extent of what I'm working on. For the most part my knife making journey is focused on the development of a range of fixed blade designs, but I also have 3 folder designs that I've been slowly working on for about 2 years. For 1 of those designs I am considering a liner-less G10 option/variation. I've built 7 liner-less G10 folders over the past 15 months or so. All 7 were an evolving set of prototypes in an effort to work out design and engineering considerations for a liner-less G10 folding design. The primary reason for the testing was to answer the question.."Is it possible to make a custom knife quality folder in a liner-less G10 format?". What I have found is that G10 is more than strong enough and more than durable enough to be used without liners. With appropriate manipulation of the depth, placement and circumference of internal parts (pivots, washers, posts, stops pins, stand-offs, etc..) you can definitely build a G10 knife that has no need for a liner whatsoever. One big initial concern I had (that I assume a fair number of people might be concerned about as well) was the idea of grit and grime getting between the pivot washer and the G10 and abrading the G10. Without writing 2 more boring paragraphs explaining the results, I'll summarize by saying... after extensive testing I learned that my concerns were largely unfounded (if anyone wants details, just ask me and I'll explain further). The most recent prototype handled way too much abusive testing without a hiccup, and is still functioning flawlessly like a fine custom knife should as I write this today.
Everyone is very much entitled to their opinions, and I won't disagree with anyone liking what they like. Anyone can like or dislike a knife based on looks without actually using it and call that their opinion. There's nothing wrong with that. But saying you don't like a knife's internal functional design elements before the knife is produced is an hypothesis without factual basis...not an opinion at all. Let's just see how the knife performs. Sal, Eric, Peter and Spyderco's long history of successes have more than earned that respect.
Best,
Chad
Last edited by Xplorer on Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
:spyder: Spyderco fan and collector since 1991. :spyder:
Father of 2, nature explorer, custom knife maker.
@ckc_knifemaker on Instagram.
The direction this thread took is exactly why I don't post here as often as I used to. I'm reluctant to weigh in but I have some unique insights on this subject that I think would be helpful to my friends here at the forum.
For the record, I'm looking forward to the new Native Chief.
I truly don't understand people saying up front that they don't like it being liner-less before they've ever used it. Whether this knife is stronger, weaker, more durable or less durable because it is liner-less is not a forgone conclusion and is purely a question of engineering. This is not something that one can judge prior to using the actual design. I have had enough conversations with Sal and Peter to know that they take the engineering very seriously and I have absolutely no reason to doubt they have designed a great knife. If it turns out that they didn't engineer it properly (highly doubtful), we can all judge them with actual facts and actual user results if that should be the case. Until then, people saying that going liner-less is just a cost savings measure and implying that this design will be in some manner inferior to a design with liners are just speculating. Let's see how the knife performs. I expect it to be a successful design, but I won't know until I know.
Here's a little background beyond my confidence in the Spyderco team as to why I am optimistic.... A few of you might know I make knives. However, I don't show most of what I do publicly right now and only 2 people here actually know the full extent of what I'm working on. For the most part my knife making journey is focused on the development of a range of fixed blade designs, but I also have 3 folder designs that I've been slowly working on for about 2 years. For 1 of those designs I am considering a liner-less G10 option/variation. I've built 7 liner-less G10 folders over the past 15 months or so. All 7 were an evolving set of prototypes in an effort to work out design and engineering considerations for a liner-less G10 folding design. The primary reason for the testing was to answer the question.."Is it possible to make a custom knife quality folder in a liner-less G10 format?". What I have found is that G10 is more than strong enough and more than durable enough to be used without liners. With appropriate manipulation of the depth, placement and circumference of internal parts (pivots, washers, posts, stops pins, stand-offs, etc..) you can definitely build a G10 knife that has no need for a liner whatsoever. One big initial concern I had (that I assume a fair number of people might be concerned about as well) was the idea of grit and grime getting between the pivot washer and the G10 and abrading the G10. Without writing 2 more boring paragraphs explaining the results, I'll summarize by saying... after extensive testing I learned that my concerns were largely unfounded (if anyone wants details, just ask me and I'll explain further). The most recent prototype handled way too much abusive testing without a hiccup, and is still functioning flawlessly like a fine custom knife should as I write this today.
Everyone is very much entitled to their opinions, and I won't disagree with anyone liking what they like. Anyone can like or dislike a knife based on looks without actually using it and call that their opinion. There's nothing wrong with that. But saying you don't like a knife's internal functional design elements before the knife is produced is an hypothesis without factual basis...not an opinion at all. Let's just see how the knife performs. Sal, Eric, Peter and Spyderco's long history successes have more than earned that respect.
I was a little dismayed by the latest Native Chief photos, but only because it adds extra length to my already groaningly full wish list.
I only aquired a Manix 2 backlock this week, and I am really impressed with its build quality, so I see no reason to doubt the integrity of the NC construction. Just the care taken in accurately letting in all those threaded inserts for the clip is impressive, for example.
Just had a look at the Emphasis and it's specs (see "Amsterdam thread"): Really looks very much like a downsized Chief, but still a lot larger than the Native. Unfortunately linerlock instead of backlock and lesser steel... otherwise and sizewise I personally would prefer it over the Chief (bladelength Emphasis: 9.1 cm, Chief 10.4)
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
The direction this thread took is exactly why I don't post here as often as I used to. I'm reluctant to weigh in but I have some unique insights on this subject that I think would be helpful to my friends here at the forum.
For the record, I'm looking forward to the new Native Chief.
I truly don't understand people saying up front that they don't like it being liner-less before they've ever used it. Whether this knife is stronger, weaker, more durable or less durable because it is liner-less is not a forgone conclusion and is purely a question of engineering. This is not something that one can judge prior to using the actual design.
Don't worry, I won't be posting much at all anymore. I know it can be upsetting when the echo chamber is disturbed.
I'd really like to know how G-10 could be stronger or more durable than solid steel, given the liners would be done similarly to how spyderco always does their liners. I guess there's always the possibility that spyderco could design or manufacture the liners in a horribly flawed and inferior manner, causing the knife to be weaker. I just don't see this as a strong possibility. The thought of liners making a folding knife weaker basically asserts that spyderco has been wasting an innumerable amount of money, time, and resources over the years solely to release less durable products. I think it's safe to say spyderco understands how to do liners correctly. But that's just me.
This decision isn't based on making the knife stronger. It is based on:
1. Spyderco taking the time to listen to the concerns and desires of their customer base (demand) and fulfill said requests (supply). The community has an obsession with weight reduction and spyderco is happy to oblige.
2. Not having to incorporate liners undoubtedly makes designing and manufacturing the model less complicated, less time consuming, and less expensive.
I never said it would be a WEAK knife. But I am saying that liners DO make a folding knife stronger, given they aren't executed horribly.
I'd rather not see this thread get shut down, so it's probably best for everyone to move on to another topic, something besides liners. Everyone who needed, has said all there is to be said on the matter; now it's beating dead horses and going nowhere.
