More "Carbon Steel Chauvinism": need your help refuting it.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

There is a video on Youtube in which the narrator shows illustrated images of Fur Trade, Colonial, Frontier, and Old West hand made carbon steel knives and proceeds to give a list of reasons as to why those old Pre Stainless and Pre Industrial knives were superior to our modern industrially made stainless steel knives.

Some of his reasons include the claims that they were tougher and more resistant to damage because they had simpler ingredients and less of the alloying atoms in modern steel, and, they were easier to sharpen and reforge in the wilderness and homestead and local villages, only needing basic blacksmithing tools and fire.

I am sure there is some truth to this, but in my opinion it is unfairly biased against the knife advances we have made since then.

It reminds me of the guy I told you all about years ago. I showed him the Spyderco Endura and even the Buck 110 and he laughed and said men like Davy Crockett, Daniel Boone, Jim Bowie, the Vikings and the European explorers all carried big single and double edged forged carbon steel blades, and the Aborigine and Native American and other people groups who had been using glass hard stone knives quickly abandoned those for big carbon steel knives.

But I do not see it as an either or. There are plenty of men and women who appreciate BOTH the amazing stainless and carbon tool steel knives of today along with the old school simple carbon steel knives of yesteryear.

His big claim is that stuff like AUS10 and VG10 and others will chip and break easier. But I have seen videos made by people like vivi and others where modern knives hammer through wood with no problem.

There are videos where a guy chopped wood with a Spyderco Endura and a Cold Steel Air Lite.

If the mountain men could use H1 and H2 steel they would call it magic.

[oli sb]

vg 10 isnt the toughest its ok but steels like cpm 3v cpm cru wear magnacut etc are far more durable than any old carbon steel by far i have a kizer smolt in cpm 3v i chopped into a steel bar with it as a test and it could still cut paper afterwards the magnamax mule team blade did even better no damage from cutting into mild steel i also tested a native chief in magnacut by chopping into ironwood and it could still shave after that i also have an old muela hunting knife 21cm blade steel is x50cr15mov basicly german 420hc and it surved brutal chopping and prying with no damage i even have an old 50cm 2.5 mm spine machete in unknown stainless steel extremly flexible and tough great for chopping modern alloy steels beat old carbon steels in durability and corrosion resistance easily thats why processes like alloying and later powder metallurgy were inveted to make stronger steel for better tools

[SpyderEdgeForever]

vg 10 isnt the toughest its ok but steels like cpm 3v cpm cru wear magnacut etc are far more durable than any old carbon steel by far i have a kizer smolt in cpm 3v i chopped into a steel bar with it as a test and it could still cut paper afterwards the magnamax mule team blade did even better no damage from cutting into mild steel i also tested a native chief in magnacut by chopping into ironwood and it could still shave after that i also have an old muela hunting knife 21cm blade steel is x50cr15mov basicly german 420hc and it surved brutal chopping and prying with no damage i even have an old 50cm 2.5 mm spine machete in unknown stainless steel extremly flexible and tough great for chopping modern alloy steels beat old carbon steels in durability and corrosion resistance easily thats why processes like alloying and later powder metallurgy were inveted to make stronger steel for better tools

This is truly amazing! Thank you!

[Ankerson]

There is a video on Youtube in which the narrator shows illustrated images of Fur Trade, Colonial, Frontier, and Old West hand made carbon steel knives and proceeds to give a list of reasons as to why those old Pre Stainless and Pre Industrial knives were superior to our modern industrially made stainless steel knives.

Some of his reasons include the claims that they were tougher and more resistant to damage because they had simpler ingredients and less of the alloying atoms in modern steel, and, they were easier to sharpen and reforge in the wilderness and homestead and local villages, only needing basic blacksmithing tools and fire.

I am sure there is some truth to this, but in my opinion it is unfairly biased against the knife advances we have made since then.

It reminds me of the guy I told you all about years ago. I showed him the Spyderco Endura and even the Buck 110 and he laughed and said men like Davy Crockett, Daniel Boone, Jim Bowie, the Vikings and the European explorers all carried big single and double edged forged carbon steel blades, and the Aborigine and Native American and other people groups who had been using glass hard stone knives quickly abandoned those for big carbon steel knives.

But I do not see it as an either or. There are plenty of men and women who appreciate BOTH the amazing stainless and carbon tool steel knives of today along with the old school simple carbon steel knives of yesteryear.

His big claim is that stuff like AUS10 and VG10 and others will chip and break easier. But I have seen videos made by people like vivi and others where modern knives hammer through wood with no problem.

There are videos where a guy chopped wood with a Spyderco Endura and a Cold Steel Air Lite.

If the mountain men could use H1 and H2 steel they would call it magic.

I have hammered S30V through nails with no damage.

Whittled other knife blades like wood with 10V.

And of course battened hardwood with a Varity of different steels over the decades up to and including S110V and 10V.

The person who made the video is delusional.

[Scandi Grind]

easier to reforge in the wilderness and homestead and local villages, only needing basic blacksmithing tools and fire.

This is the only point I find relevant from such statements. Simple carbon is one of the few steels that are easy to manipulate with only rudimentary tooling. With nothing more than a chacoal forge, a file, and some animal fat for a quenchant you can make a good knife out of simple carbon steels. Those limitations are not very relevant to modern knife making, but if you gave someone a bar of magna-cut in those bygone times it would not have been very useful to them.

I like modern steels just fine, but being a bit of a traditionalist I find myself using simple high carbon most of the time. It's a preference that I don't expect most people to have unless they have been inundated by the bushcraft crowd who seem oddly persistent about the use of high carbon. I don't think that traditional carbon is functionally superior for almost anything. The only advantage I can think of are a few heat treatment tricks that are not possible with modern steels as far as I know, such as differential heat treats that can make a very hard edge with a very tough spine. Otherwise, modern steels outperform the old stuff.

[Ankerson]

easier to reforge in the wilderness and homestead and local villages, only needing basic blacksmithing tools and fire.

This is the only point I find relevant from such statements. Simple carbon is one of the few steels that are easy to manipulate with only rudimentary tooling. With nothing more than a chacoal forge, a file, and some animal fat for a quenchant you can make a good knife out of simple carbon steels. Those limitations are not very relevant to modern knife making, but if you gave someone a bar of magna-cut in those bygone times it would not have been very useful to them.

I like modern steels just fine, but being a bit of a traditionalist I find myself using simple high carbon most of the time. It's a preference that I don't expect most people to have unless they have been inundated by the bushcraft crowd who seem oddly persistent about the use of high carbon. I don't think that traditional carbon is functionally superior for almost anything. The only advantage I can think of are a few heat treatment tricks that are not possible with modern steels as far as I know, such as differential heat treats that can make a very hard edge with a very tough spine. Otherwise, modern steels outperform the old stuff.

That crowd is full of those who seek confirmation bias.

[silver & black]

As a Cabinetmaker, all of my hand tools are carbon steel... planes, spokeshaves, chisels, draw knives, marking knives, marking guages.... Most of my saw blades, shaper cutters and router bits are carbide.

[Ankerson]

As a Cabinetmaker, all of my hand tools are carbon steel... planes, spokeshaves, chisels, draw knives, marking knives, marking guages.... Most of my saw blades, shaper cutters and router bits are carbide.

As those always have been. Router bits, jointer bits, planer blades, saw blades etc are usually carbide though.

However on the commercial production level they are not.

[silver & black]

As a Cabinetmaker, all of my hand tools are carbon steel... planes, spokeshaves, chisels, draw knives, marking knives, marking guages.... Most of my saw blades, shaper cutters and router bits are carbide.

As those always have been. Router bits, jointer bits, planer blades, saw blades etc are usually carbide though.

However on the commercial production level they are not.

I don't know of any traditional planer blades/jointer blades being carbide... although I'm sure the new spiral cutter heads with the individual blades would probably be carbide.

[Ankerson]

As a Cabinetmaker, all of my hand tools are carbon steel... planes, spokeshaves, chisels, draw knives, marking knives, marking guages.... Most of my saw blades, shaper cutters and router bits are carbide.

As those always have been. Router bits, jointer bits, planer blades, saw blades etc are usually carbide though.

However on the commercial production level they are not.

I don't know of any traditional planer blades/jointer blades being carbide... although I'm sure the new spiral cutter heads with the individual blades would probably be carbide.

Been around for awhile now.

https://mywoodcutters.com/Replacement_K ... es_Carbide

One place that has carbide jointer and planner blades.

[silver & black]

As a Cabinetmaker, all of my hand tools are carbon steel... planes, spokeshaves, chisels, draw knives, marking knives, marking guages.... Most of my saw blades, shaper cutters and router bits are carbide.

As those always have been. Router bits, jointer bits, planer blades, saw blades etc are usually carbide though.

However on the commercial production level they are not.

I don't know of any traditional planer blades/jointer blades being carbide... although I'm sure the new spiral cutter heads with the individual blades would probably be carbide.

Been around for awhile now.

https://mywoodcutters.com/Replacement_K ... es_Carbide

One place that has carbide jointer and planner blades.

You'd think for as long as I've been in the trade I would know there are carbide blades for both...lol. I know all the helical heads are carbide. I guess I've just always worked in shops that had HSS blades and I've always just used HSS blades as well. Live and learn. Thanks for the link... I might have to look into that the next time it's time to change out blades. Anything that lasts 10 times longer is a bonus for me....... I hate changing jointer blades!

[Doc Dan]

The people that post such rubbish are the same ones that ate glue in class as a kid and eat tide pods now. They have zero actual experience with knives or steels. All one needs is a smartphone and a Youtube account to become an expert.

[James Y]

Back in the "old days," people also used to cross the US either in covered wagons, or by taking ships from one coast down around Cape Horn at the bottom of South America, and up to the opposite US coast.

I've read a book written in the last 20 to 25 years, where the author claimed that stainless steels cannot take a decent edge, much less hold one. His brain must be stuck on some old chrome-plated "stainless" steels on extremely cheap Mexican-made switchblades from back in the 1970s.

It's one thing to prefer straight carbon steels. Everybody has their preferences. But spreading ignorance is not bliss.

That same author also stated that serrated knives are impossible to resharpen. The example he used in a photo was of a SE Spyderco Delica.

Jim

[Aladinsane]

I’m willing to bet that if I went back in time and showed a Viking a modern stainless steel blade that he would be shocked and amazed and immediately adopt it as a superior tool.

Progress is made by adopting the better technology. Later, when people have the luxury to do so, they will look back and dabble in things of the past and mistakenly assume that the uncommonness of those things somehow makes them better. They aren’t. Humans didn’t become the dominant species on the planet by moving backwards and re-adopting old, outdated technology.

[Ankerson]

I’m willing to bet that if I went back in time and showed a Viking a modern stainless steel blade that he would be shocked and amazed and immediately adopt it as a superior tool.

Progress is made by adopting the better technology. Later, when people have the luxury to do so, they will look back and dabble in things of the past and mistakenly assume that the uncommonness of those things somehow makes them better. They aren’t. Humans didn’t become the dominant species on the planet by moving backwards and re-adopting old, outdated technology.

How true.

But you just can't fix confirmation bias, blatant complete stupidity or willful ignorance.

If things were up to idiots like these stupid people humans would have never developed the wheel and humans would still be living in caves beating meat off bones with sticks.

[Ramonade]

It's most often old knowledge that has been repeated for years (and is obsolete, obviously).

In my village almost everyone uses knives there and then in their job and they all say stainless steels are bad. They view stainless steels as the cheaply produced and low alloy stainless we can find in garbage folders or kitchen knives. One of them tried to prove the knife I made was bad by showing me two Opinels, one in carbon steel and one in stainless.
Another, which is a blacksmith knifemaker had a point when he explained that forging respects the matrix of the steel and does not cut it flat out. But when I started mentionning PM steels we were already out of his territory. Performance knives are still a very small niche here even for knife makers or knife enthusiasts (in the custom world I mean).

Best still you'll find at a knife show is often RWL34. Even if I know 2 or 3 knifemakers here that will make you a stupidly good Cruwear or M390 blade .

[SpyderEdgeForever]

It's most often old knowledge that has been repeated for years (and is obsolete, obviously).

In my village almost everyone uses knives there and then in their job and they all say stainless steels are bad. They view stainless steels as the cheaply produced and low alloy stainless we can find in garbage folders or kitchen knives. One of them tried to prove the knife I made was bad by showing me two Opinels, one in carbon steel and one in stainless.
Another, which is a blacksmith knifemaker had a point when he explained that forging respects the matrix of the steel and does not cut it flat out. But when I started mentionning PM steels we were already out of his territory. Performance knives are still a very small niche here even for knife makers or knife enthusiasts (in the custom world I mean).

Best still you'll find at a knife show is often RWL34. Even if I know 2 or 3 knifemakers here that will make you a stupidly good Cruwear or M390 blade .

Thank you for this. This is amazing to me. I so love European knives and culture and that of France. I love French knives and Opinel and I am so proud of you in the good sense of pride, my friend.

Do you like the Sandvik 12C27 on the Opinel Inox knives?

[Ankerson]

It's most often old knowledge that has been repeated for years (and is obsolete, obviously).

In my village almost everyone uses knives there and then in their job and they all say stainless steels are bad. They view stainless steels as the cheaply produced and low alloy stainless we can find in garbage folders or kitchen knives. One of them tried to prove the knife I made was bad by showing me two Opinels, one in carbon steel and one in stainless.
Another, which is a blacksmith knifemaker had a point when he explained that forging respects the matrix of the steel and does not cut it flat out. But when I started mentionning PM steels we were already out of his territory. Performance knives are still a very small niche here even for knife makers or knife enthusiasts (in the custom world I mean).

Best still you'll find at a knife show is often RWL34. Even if I know 2 or 3 knifemakers here that will make you a stupidly good Cruwear or M390 blade .

RWL34 is equal to CPM 154 so that is not a bad choice at all.

[vivi]

I've never found a steel with a good heat treat that couldn't take a shaving sharp edge.

In my eyes when people complain about certain steels not taking an edge well, it says more about their abilities than the steel.

I've gotten anything from a $4 BudK close out "420J2" knife to magnamax, maxamet and S110V, to simple carbon steels like O1, A2 and 1055 to shave cleanly.

[silver & black]

I've never found a steel with a good heat treat that couldn't take a shaving sharp edge.

In my eyes when people complain about certain steels not taking an edge well, it says more about their abilities than the steel.

I've gotten anything from a $4 BudK close out "420J2" knife to magnamax, maxamet and S110V, to simple carbon steels like O1, A2 and 1055 to shave cleanly.

All of my plane irons and chisels will shave you to the bone
(01 - A2)