154CM - 64HRC - Any Experience?

[BeTheExample731]

Hello all,

Most knife companies I've seen seem to underwhelm the heat treatment of 154CM. I know that it isn't used much anymore, but I am certainly curious about something here. Normally, I see it's around anywhere from 58-61HRC, but it's been reported closer to the lower end.

I've been informed that 154CM can reach 64HRC where it can really shine. It's supposed to be a massive improvement. Does anyone have any direct experience with 154CM treated at a higher rockwell? If so, how much better has it performed?

AA Forge (Adam Gray) is a custom maker out of Ohio who heat treats his 154CM to 63HRC and uses mostly convex grinds. I presume he's not the only one? Are there others doing the heat treatment of 154CM at higher numbers?

All solid information is appreciated it advance. Thank you!

[Larrin]

Why not CPM-154?

[Steeltoez83]

Ive tested cpm 154 at 64 hrc. I might have posted results here, im not 100% sure tho. This is afterall the spyderco forum in which I strive to center data points around spyderco products.

[Synov]

Why not CPM-154?

Why not MagnaCut?

[Bill1170]

Why not CPM-154?

It’s a good question, given that the performance characteristics of this alloy all improve or remain unchanged when made with powder metallurgy.

[sal]

I agree with Larrin.

CPM-154 is kinda the best of the historical development of the grade.

sal

[BeTheExample731]

Why not CPM-154?

The question still remains about 64HRC. Yes, the powdered form has a more uniform carbide structure, however, I'm curious about what I've researched regarding 154CM. That's what I'm specifically asking about. If you can shed any light on this, please do.

[N. Brian Huegel]

Many cutlery manufacturers under hardened their steels as a matter of economy more so than ignorance. I have been told that if one lowers the hardness by a point or two from the optimum, grinding wheel wear (and other abrasives and tooling) is dramatically reduced which decreases the cost (increases the profit). From day one, Sal Glesser has focused on performance (steels, optimum heat treatment, R&D, lock strength, and ergonomics). Spyderco knives have radically influenced our industry in the last 40 years. His innovations are Humvees that drive like Ferraris.

nb

[Steeltoez83]

At 64 hrc- cpm154 not 154cm does outcut magnacut from what ive personally tested. Another knife tester/maker Steve Callari also found the same results. Idk what the hrc of the magnamax mules are, but cpm 154 at 64 hrc with custom small batch heat treat did outcut the mule in my controlled testing. In real world uses, there probably isn't a distinct difference between the 2. Mind you this was a custom/performance focused heat treat.

Its unfair to compare the two disciplines custom vs production. I still get joy from both.

[Synov]

At 64 hrc- cpm154 not 154cm does outcut magnacut from what ive personally tested. Another knife tester/maker Steve Callari also found the same results. Idk what the hrc of the magnamax mules are, but cpm 154 at 64 hrc with custom small batch heat treat did outcut the mule in my controlled testing. In real world uses, there probably isn't a distinct difference between the 2. Mind you this was a custom/performance focused heat treat.

Its unfair to compare the two disciplines custom vs production. I still get joy from both.

How much more did it outcut MagnaCut? Larrin's CATRA data shows the opposite, but they're close. Also, Magnacut is much tougher and has near perfect corrosion resistance.

[Larrin]

At 64 hrc- cpm154 not 154cm does outcut magnacut from what ive personally tested. Another knife tester/maker Steve Callari also found the same results. Idk what the hrc of the magnamax mules are, but cpm 154 at 64 hrc with custom small batch heat treat did outcut the mule in my controlled testing. In real world uses, there probably isn't a distinct difference between the 2. Mind you this was a custom/performance focused heat treat.

Its unfair to compare the two disciplines custom vs production. I still get joy from both.

Two different knives where the Rockwell hardness is only known in one of them isn’t much of a comparison. Different knives, different grinds, etc. That’s all assuming your sharpening maintains perfect angles.

[Steeltoez83]

Haven't tested toughness of magnacut yet but cpm 154 at 64 hrc was 76% I think. I've tested 3 samples of magnacut and the 64 hrc is about a 35% upgrade in performance over the 3 magnacut cut test mean. Longevity testing was 17 rounds at 1,720 while magnacut spyderco was 13 rounds 1,020. The Aeb-l mule outcut spyderco magnacut, by 15, but that was a special heat treat more should have jumped on.

[Steeltoez83]

My testing falls under gage r and r. Specifically nested but that's specifics not many are interested in. I compare my edges to my edges and see where the results land. It's a relaxed approach, however I have found only 3% variance in the dozens of samples I have retested over the years. And I've run over a 1,000 cut tests at this point. Most users would receive performance levels of spy27 with production run 154cm anyways. My steadfast was double the price of my para 3 as well. Magnacut is far more accessible, better priced, on many models, more common in custom makers, more data points, better toughness qnd rust resistance, and takes a sticky edge too.

[horzuff]

Maybe not 154CM but I had a custom N690 gyuto at ~65RC for testing back in the days when I still had the motivation to do my own tests. It wasn't anything ground breaking, did better than normal N690 but worse than S30V/S35VN or CPM M4 in cutting cardboard - I tested 3 knives along one another, using the same amounts of the same cardboard, with the same length of edge and rest taped over until they stopped cutting paper cleanly at every try. I think it was a bradley folder for the M4 but no idea regarding the SxxV