Please advise me on serrated edges

[OV1kenobi]

Among my several Spydercos my VG-10 Leaf Jumper has become one of my favorites. Finger choils never really “did it” for me, so most of my others are Delicas and Enduras. To each their own, I suppose.

With the demise of the Leaf Jumper I went ahead and ordered another PE, but in K390. That got me curious about serrated edges. With the exception of one Victorinox Spartan Serrated that I rarely use I have never owned a knife with a serrated edge. It always seemed that serrated edges would be a hassle to maintain. Maybe I am wrong.

I am retired. My days of breaking down cardboard boxes and busting pallet straps are long gone.The greatest demands my knives now face are camping chores such as notching and making feather sticks and occasional outdoor food prep.

Would serrated edges be worthwhile for someone like me? How about ease or difficulty in sharpening and maintaining the edge?

If worthwhile I will probably order a third Leaf Jumper, but in SE. Who knows? Maybe even an Endura SE K390 or Pacific Salt might be in my future!

Thanks in advance for sharing your advice and experience.

[aicolainen]

IMO it would only be worthwhile if you approach it from a curiosity perspective.
It's an aspect of the knife world to explore, which could have intrinsic value in it self, but for your specified use I don't see much immediate benefit to SE.

Personally I'm quite neutral to SE. I have a fair selection of SE knives and really enjoy them in some applications, but for my typical use I find PE to be a better fit. My favorite serrated knives are the partially serrated CE knives. The larger portion of plain edge make them more versatile in my use, but I know many around here will feel differently.

[WilliamMunny]

In part SE vs PE is very personal choice. IMO it never hurts to have one or two SE knives in your collection.

For sharpening a Spyderco Sharpmaker makes it very easy to maintain and sharpen SE knives.

[yablanowitz]

For notching, serrated edges work great. Feathersticking, maybe, maybe not. Serrated edges are ground on the show side, so they actually work better when used left-handed for cuts like that. I carry a serrated K390 Police4 all the time for rough work. It goes through little volunteer elm trees like a chainsaw. A SharpMaker makes it a breeze to maintain the edge.

[Wartstein]

...the greatest demands my knives now face are camping chores such as notching and making feather sticks and occasional outdoor food prep.

Would serrated edges be worthwhile for someone like me? How about ease or difficulty in sharpening and maintaining the edge?
.....

Oh man, don´t get me started...

To me Spydercos serrated edges are superior to plain edges in almost any task when it comes to folder use, and I may say that meanwhile I have quite some experience with SE.

- Spydercos SE actually is especially good for notching, since it bites into wood a lot better than PE (mostly due to the SE chisel grind vs the PE V-grind). And SE makes amazing and very fine feather sticks, also better than PE in my use.

- Sharpening?
With a sharpmaker actually even a bit quicker and easier than PE (see this post viewtopic.php?p=1349519#p1349519 and the vid linked below, both by Vivi)

- Also, SE holds an edge longer than PE (since it effectively offers a longer cutting edge than the same model in PE, and the edge is protected from impact inside the scallops, especially when cutting on a surface)

- And: SE will still separate / tear apart matter when technically already dull, where PE would be pretty much useless

- SE cuts much better into many materials, since the "points" between the scallops will puncture and initiate the cut, where PE has a harder time or might even glance off.

- HOW and HOW WELL SE performs, depends a bit on how the serrations are done,see here viewtopic.php?p=1364190#p1364190 for that.
I (and many others ) recommend "shallow", "non aggressive" serrations, those to me feel like the "better PE".,

The Leaf Jumper SE actually does offer great serrations, as do the Stretch XL SE, Endela SE and Caribbean SE (and more, these four models just came to mind first).
Go for one of those, if you like pure, great cutting performance, you won´t be disappointed!!

[RustyIron]

If worthwhile I will probably order a third Leaf Jumper, but in SE. Who knows? Maybe even an Endura SE K390 or Pacific Salt might be in my future!

Several of the K390 SE knives have been discontinued and were being offered at substantial discounts. You still might be able to find a good deal if there are any left. If I recall correctly, the Endura, Delica, and Police were some of the models.

Sharpening the serrated edges isn't quite as awful as you might have envisioned, as long as you have a Spyderco Sharp Maker. The Sharp Maker is a pretty handy tool, even if you don't have serrated knives. A set of diamond stones will increase its usefulness.

But on to the overall SE experience. The SE shines on fibrous stuff like plants. If you do yard work and use a knife, you'll really like the serrated edge. It's also good for opening up packages, and hacking through tough plastic packaging. For precision work like you might encounter in the kitchen or shop, a plain edge is better.

You might as well get one. If you don't, you'll always be wondering what you're missing out on.

Rob

P.S.
OV1? Mohawk?

[OV1kenobi]

If worthwhile I will probably order a third Leaf Jumper, but in SE. Who knows? Maybe even an Endura SE K390 or Pacific Salt might be in my future!

Several of the K390 SE knives have been discontinued and were being offered at substantial discounts. You still might be able to find a good deal if there are any left. If I recall correctly, the Endura, Delica, and Police were some of the models.

Sharpening the serrated edges isn't quite as awful as you might have envisioned, as long as you have a Spyderco Sharp Maker. The Sharp Maker is a pretty handy tool, even if you don't have serrated knives. A set of diamond stones will increase its usefulness.

But on to the overall SE experience. The SE shines on fibrous stuff like plants. If you do yard work and use a knife, you'll really like the serrated edge. It's also good for opening up packages, and hacking through tough plastic packaging. For precision work like you might encounter in the kitchen or shop, a plain edge is better.

You might as well get one. If you don't, you'll always be wondering what you're missing out on.

Rob

P.S.
OV1? Mohawk?

You nailed it! Yes, during the 1980’s I was an enlisted rightseater with the U.S. Army OV-1 Mohawks. It and the RV-1 variant were the only two U.S. Army aircraft to my knowledge that had ejection seats.

[Michael Janich]

Dear OV1kenobi:

Thank you for your service!

In the August 2024 issue of the byte, I wrote an Edge-U-Cation article about serrations that included many insights from Sal himself. It might be worth a read to get some general knowledge:

https://mailchi.mp/spyderco/spyderco-by ... cycb2mvhza

Stay safe,

Mike

[RustyIron]

You nailed it! Yes, during the 1980’s I was an enlisted rightseater with the U.S. Army OV-1 Mohawks. It and the RV-1 variant were the only two U.S. Army aircraft to my knowledge that had ejection seats.

Cool. A good friend had the same gig, but 20 years earlier in Vietnam.

[Evil D]

I know you said finger choils aren't your thing but I like to recommend based on what I find to be easiest to sharpen, because that's going to really effect your opinion overall, and lately one of the best I've used out of the box is a Native Salt in MagnaCut. I think it's important to be able to sharpen them on the Sharpmaker right out of the box without needing to do any reprofiling and though my sample size is only a Native 5 and a Chief, it seems like Golden are grinding the serrations on these knives the same way.

[OV1kenobi]

You nailed it! Yes, during the 1980’s I was an enlisted rightseater with the U.S. Army OV-1 Mohawks. It and the RV-1 variant were the only two U.S. Army aircraft to my knowledge that had ejection seats.

Cool. A good friend had the same gig, but 20 years earlier in Vietnam.

I don’t envy your friend, although I did experience the intense pleasure of an all expenses paid tour at the “Club Palmerola” resort in Central America. Courtesy of Uncle Sugar.

I do have a Sharpmaker. In fact, my first Spyderco from almost twenty years ago. So, it looks like I have what it takes to at least sharpen a VG-10 SE blade.

What I will probably do is order at least one Leaf Jumper SE in VG-10; especially since they will be on clearance. As others have said, I won’t know unless I give it a try. If it turns out not to be for me I will not have lost a fortune. I will gift them to my grandson or someone else who would appreciate them.

[zhyla]

The greatest demands my knives now face are camping chores such as notching and making feather sticks and occasional outdoor food prep.

Would serrated edges be worthwhile for someone like me?

IMO, no, not really. SE teeth are fragile. They're great for ripping thru fibrous material but not great for wood unless we're talking about actual saws. They will chip out easier than a PE blade edge because they are less supported, so any kind of lateral force on the blade in wood is going to risk damage. They're fine for food prep but typically not an advantage over PE.

You should get an SE blade. They are great for general EDC. I choose SE when it's an option. But it's unlikely you're going to prefer it to PE for your specific use cases.

How about ease or difficulty in sharpening and maintaining the edge?

Easy.

[OV1kenobi]

I know you said finger choils aren't your thing but I like to recommend based on what I find to be easiest to sharpen, because that's going to really effect your opinion overall, and lately one of the best I've used out of the box is a Native Salt in MagnaCut. I think it's important to be able to sharpen them on the Sharpmaker right out of the box without needing to do any reprofiling and though my sample size is only a Native 5 and a Chief, it seems like Golden are grinding the serrations on these knives the same way.

I decided to go with a Leaf Jumper SE in VG-10 because I like the design of the knife and they will be on clearance as a soon to be extinct species.

Who knows?

I might really become a true believer in the SE and look at other models, including the ones you suggested. Btw, I do own a Sharpmaker.

Thanks!

[Wartstein]

IMO, no, not really. SE teeth are fragile. They're great for ripping thru fibrous material but not great for wood unless we're talking about actual saws. They will chip out easier than a PE blade edge because they are less supported, so any kind of lateral force on the blade in wood is going to risk damage. They're fine for food prep but typically not an advantage over PE.

You should get an SE blade. They are great for general EDC. I choose SE when it's an option. But it's unlikely you're going to prefer it to PE for your specific use cases.

How about ease or difficulty in sharpening and

Probably true in theory.

But as said: I find a shallow serrated Spyderedge especially good in the outdoor woodwork I do with a folder (!) (whittling, notching, feathersticks, even light batoning for making tinder...not carving out precise figurines or the like, here PE sure would be better!)

No chipping, no durability problems. Not "fragile" in my use.
And the chisel grind of SE bites into wood a lot better than SE and combined with the scallops makes for very fine feathersticks, perfectly suited for tinder.

Actually, in the articel that Mike Janich linked (here once more https://mailchi.mp/spyderco/spyderco-by ... cycb2mvhza) it gets explained why SE can have such a steep inclusive (chisel grind) edge angle but still be strong, quote:

"the “included” angle of that chisel-ground edge is half that of a comparable V-ground edge. On a PlainEdge™ blade, that would leave the terminal portion of the edge extremely fragile and prone to rolling or chipping. However, the unique structure of serration teeth and, very importantly, the ridges between them, actually reinforces the structural strength of the edge. Despite its thinner edge geometry, it remains strong. "

[zhyla]

Thanks for the link, Wartstein!

"However, the unique structure of serration teeth and, very importantly, the ridges between them, actually reinforces the structural strength of the edge. Despite its thinner edge geometry, it remains strong."

Does anyone have a physical explanation for what Mr. Janich is claiming here? It sounds... false.

Having chipped a SE tooth making kindling on a Manix 2, I think it's still something to keep in mind. Ebay is full of SE knives with bad teeth. They just don't take abuse as well as PE.

[Spyderwebs]

for a "dip a toe in" trial, the Temperance 2 Cruwear has the shallow Moki factory style serrations. They are very subtle and are by far my favorite edge type.

Their shallowness means they dont snag, are easy to sharpen, and leave a relatively clean cut, while remaining extremely aggressive in separating matter.

The Temperance Cruwear sprint is only $135 for a big hunk of cruwear. Its a solid deal. The recent Ayoob sprint also has this style of shallow serration, but will be more $$$ on the secondary.

[skeeg11]

If you want to test the waters of the serrated pond for short money, check out the serrated Byrds. They do a great job with slightly less aggressive teeth.

[ladybug93]

the answer to, "should i own a spyderedge pacific salt?" is always YES!!!

eta: or maybe a stretch 2 xl salt
also eta: i forgot you said no choils, so ignore my first eta.

[Evil D]

Serrations being fragile depends entirely on the profile they're ground at, just as you can grind a plain edge thin enough to fracture out if you try to carve hard wood.

[Wartstein]

Thanks for the link, Wartstein!

"However, the unique structure of serration teeth and, very importantly, the ridges between them, actually reinforces the structural strength of the edge. Despite its thinner edge geometry, it remains strong."

Does anyone have a physical explanation for what Mr. Janich is claiming here? It sounds... false.

Having chipped a SE tooth making kindling on a Manix 2, I think it's still something to keep in mind. Ebay is full of SE knives with bad teeth. They just don't take abuse as well as PE.

I am really no expert and cannot properly explain.

I can also very well imagine that if stressed further and further SE IS more fragile than PE indeed, sounds just logical that those teeth chip/break easier than a plain edge.

All I can say is that with the particular SE Spydies I use for "outdoor woodwork" - like notching, rougher carving, making pointy sticks or shavings, light (!) batoning of smaller branches - I never had any problems, no chipping, no broken or bent teeth and so on. SE is just strong enough in my personal experience.

And just for me SE also works better in the above listed folder (!) tasks, cause the chisel grind bites into wood more aggressively than the usual PE V grind (and it does not matter if the surface of the cut is a bit rougher in those tasks).

Perhaps some here would like to try themselves with ideally the same model in PE and SE:

- Cut a twig in half or make a notch as quickly as possible: I am.pretty sure the steep SE chisel grind "wins" (in my use it does)

- Make a featherstick: Again, the somehow finer shavings the SE scallops produce should catch a spark easier.