K294 Mule Team - anybody KNOW the "probable HARDNESS" of the release?

[swknight]

Their TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS from BOHLER website states from:
54 (heat treatments 565 to 1010 degrees)
TO 64 (heat treatments 565 to 2150 degrees)

I remember reading about V15 and "BigBrownBear" being a gentleman and always giving us the insight on "THAT" great 4-way release. Thanks BBB. Love all 4 of them... FAV = Manix & PM2 for EDC...

Best to all no mater what I will GRAB a K294 MT release 8-22-2023 11 days hence...

Thanks to so many of you sharing your expertise and knowledge - it make the KNIVES more fun...

SWK

[swknight]

If one reads the very readable book: "THE STORY OF KNIFE STEEL" by member here, Dr. Larrin Thomas...

ESPECIALLY Pages on HARDNESS = 110, 144, 151, 155, 166, 379, 441, 472...

You will see that with many steels a higher HARDNESS allows the knife steels to be more aggressive in their
number of probable CUTS.

Spyderco has been able to do a great JOB on HARDNESSES on many steels...

[weeping minora]

[swknight]

Like the CPM S15V - when "BBB" posted that he hit 65 HARDNESS right here on the forum...

The scariest MOVIE I ever saw was a 1951 movie - entitled THE THING FROM ANOTHER WORLD... I was about 7 at the time...
I was waiting for it to visit me... smiled at your post - Weeping Minora... that was a LONG LONG time ago...

BTW reading about A11 on another site Dr. Larin's - hardness really make a difference...

[weeping minora]

From what I understand, John Carpenter (director of the 1982 Thing), was inspired and essentially "re-imagined" The Thing From Another World! I haven't yet seen that original film, however, John's film is one of my all-time favorites! I posted here as the ending lines came straight to mind when I read your post. I'm glad it brought a smile and memories to share! Thank you for that.

As far as hardness for the K294, I can only speculate that it will be somewhere in the 64-65rc range, based solely off of what Seki does with K390. Might perhaps be a touch lower, though I have a feeling that whatever they achieve, it will be an outstanding performer. Spyderco themselves are very gun-shy on releasing numbers, but no doubt someone will get a piece and test it shortly after release.

[swknight]

Weeping Minora:

Found this for you: https://www.amazon.com/Thing-3-Movie-Co ... 549&sr=8-6

Old James Arness (T.V. Gunsmoke- fame) plays the THING in 1951 movie...

Back in 1952 "THE THING" movie - I could not sleep for a week - being young and all... LOL

I agree with you on your prior post 100%.

Best wishes to you - enjoy the hobby -

swk

[weeping minora]

Thank you for that, SWK! Fantastic price for all 3 films! Now I have no excuse not to see the original! I may have to give it a watch over my weekend, so as to not be wiped out for work in losing too much sleep .

Take care my friend.

[Bolster]

Don't know, but I've read Phil Wilson discuss equivalent 10V at 62-63 Rc and saw a report once that a K294 Wilson knife was Rc 64. Larrin shows 10V ranging from 61-65 Rc.

[swknight]

Good answer BOLSTER!

We will see...

Thanks AGAIN...

[Ramonade]

My guess is that it will be good

[Traditional.Sharpening]

My .02,

Please don't worry about the hardness RC, this does not really predict performance as it tells you nothing of the microstructure (steel phases and percentages) and how those add up to that tester value.

My prediction,

It will be 'hard enough' to not have to worry about it being too soft as I'm not expecting the knife to be 'underhardened' in the sense of doing something intentional to leave the steel soft.

Geometry and micro-structure of the steel means far more than an RC number, cheers.

[swknight]

Wear Resistance
more than
Hardness
more than
Edge stability

make for testing cut numbers...

[Traditional.Sharpening]

Wear Resistance
more than
Hardness
more than
Edge stability

make for testing cut numbers...

What do you mean by this?

[Bolster]

...Please don't worry about the hardness RC, this does not really predict performance ...

Has this ^ correlation been run? It looks like hardness correlates with CATRA score; as such, it would predict. See - https://i2.wp.com/knifesteelnerds.com/w ... =759&ssl=1

A brief rebuttal would be most acceptable.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

...Please don't worry about the hardness RC, this does not really predict performance ...

Has this ^ correlation been run? It looks like hardness correlates with CATRA score; as such, it would predict. See - https://i2.wp.com/knifesteelnerds.com/w ... =759&ssl=1

A brief rebuttal would be most acceptable.

In short, you can have two blades with the same same RC yet behave very differently. It all comes down to what is going on at a phase level in the steel. All things being equal, harder would in general be better but they never are equal. The same is true of carbides, more is certainly not always better and can be far worse.

You can't just add more carbides without that addition changing other qualities of the steel. This is why Cliff felt that simple steels made for the best working knives as he felt that pursuing carbide volume gave up too many things in the grand scheme to detract from performance. HRC values and their importance are overstated because they don't give the whole picture.

See the quotes below taken from the following thread :

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=63654

Hardness would affect rolling / denting.
Toughness would affect fracture.
Carbide volume would affect wear.

Yes, but not exactly.

Hardness affects rolling but not the gross hardness. You can have a blade which tests harder than another but the edge actually has less resistance to rolling.

Blades are not made of uniform materials, the steel is a complex blend of phases all of different micro-structures and properties. Hardness is a very poor indication of anything, if it is all you have then it is all you have, but never try to take more from it than very coarse estimates and you can't tell much about edges.

Consider this :

Blade A :

-80% martensite at 66 HRC, the rest is very soft phases

Blade B :

-95% martensite at 60 HRC, the rest (minor amount) is soft phases

Both of these will show ~59 HRC on a standard hardness test, but they will behave very differently. The first blade will show much more dramatic edge roll and even edge chipping.

[Bolster]

^ Well done! Thanks Trad Sharp.

[swknight]

Well done everyone.

[swknight]

Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

Thread starter Ankerson Start date Nov 24, 2010

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Ankerson
Ankerson
Knife and Computer Geek

Joined
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Messages
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Nov 24, 2010

#1

What I have done is rank the steels in Categories based on edge retention cutting 5/8" manila rope. We are looking for big differences here, not ranking the steels in order such as 1,2,3,4,5. The categories or groups mean that one can expect those steels in that category to have close to the same performance as the other steels in the same category. The categories are ranked in order by edge retention, category 1 will have better performance than category 2 etc.

The Custom Phil Wilson knives in M390 (62) and ELMAX (62) are not added to the data, they wouldn't fit into any of the Categories due to the Optimal HT and cutting ability, the difference is off the scale percentage wise so it wasn't added.

The Testing Process is as follows:

Cutting 5/8" Manila rope on a Scale with wood to cut on. The scale was calibrated for the weight of the wood. Making 3 to 4 slicing cuts from back to tip using the least amount of down force needed to get the starting down force. Once that was established 20 cuts were made then down force was tested again and that continued until 20 LBS was reached.

All the knives started at 14 ~ 15 LBS of down force except for M390 because it cuts so aggressively.

Accuracy is to + or - 10 Cuts and + or - 1 LB of down force or 6%. This was verified doing a blind test of blades of unknown hardness until they were tested after. 2 blades of the same hardness and steel, sharpened the same and same model of knife.

RC hardness is + or - 1 RC on the steels that were tested as the standard of RC testing.

All edges were at 30 degrees inclusive and polished to 6000 grit on the Edge Pro, sharpness was tested by slicing TP clean.

The following data is the results that I got based on the above method, while not conclusive or the end all beat all data it is very accurate.

More steels will be added as they are tested.

Category 1

CPM-S90V (Military and Para 2) (60)
CTS-20CP (Para 2) (60)
M390 (Mule) (60.5)
CTS - 204P (Para 2)

Category 2

M390 (60)
CPM M4 (62.5)
CPM-S90V (59) (Manix 2 with 30 Degree Micro Bevel)
CPM-S60V
VANAX 75 (Kershaw Tilt)

Category 3

Vanax 35 (59.5)


Category 4

ZDP-189 (65)
CPM-154 (62)
ELMAX (60)
CTS-XHP (Military) (60+)
Super Blue (61.5)
CPM 3V (Big Chris)


Category 5

S30V (60)
VG-1
CPM - D2 (62)
N690
ATS-34 (59)
CPM-S35VN (59)
N680
ELMAX (58.5) Mule
D2 - Dozier K2

Category 6

INFI
154CM (61)
14C28N
CTS-B75P (Mule)

Category 7

VG-10
S30V (58.5)
AUS-8A
SG-2
5160 (55)
13C26N
X-15
440C (Big Chris)

Category 8

H-1
420 HC (Buck 110)

Category 9

CTS-BD1


Same method as above, but with a coarse edge, 400 grit congress Silicone carbide, more optimal edge finish for max edge retention to highlight the differences in the steels.

Steel - # of cuts - Model - HRC Hardness - Geometry Measurement -

CPM 10V - 2400 - Phil Wilson Coyote Meadow - 64.5 RC - .004" behind the edge
CPM S125V - 2340 - Phil Wilson Bow River - 62.5 RC - .006" behind the edge
CPM S125V - 1960 - Big Chris Custom - 63.5 RC - .006 behind the edge
MAXAMET - 1940 - Spyderco MT-24 - 67-68 RC - .018" Behind the edge
CPM 10V - 1180 - Darrin Sanders Custom - 63 RC - .012" behind the edge
S110V - 1120 - Manix 2 - 62 RC - Regrind to .005" behind the edge.
CPM 10V - 1100 - Spyderco/Farid K2 - 63 HRC - .020" behind the edge.
CPM S110V - 1080 - Spyderco Military - 63-64 RC - .020" Behind the edge
CPM 20CV - 960 - Michael Raymond Starlit - 62 RC - .007" - .008" behind the edge
Z-A11 - 880 - Darrion Sanders Custom - 62.5 RC - .020" behind the edge/.070" spine thickness.
REX-45 - 840 - Spyderco Military - (? HRC) - .023" behind the edge
K390 - 820 - Mule - 62-64 RC
CPM S35VN - 760 - Darrin Sanders Custom - 62 - 62.5 RC - .006" behind the edge
CPM 4V - 740 - Big Chris Custom - 63 RC - .008" - .010" Behind the edge.
CPM M4 - 740 - Phil Wilson Custom - 65 RC - .015" Behind the edge.
S110V - 720 - Manix 2 - 62 RC - .030" behind the edge
Cru-Wear - 700 - Phil Wilson Custom Bow River - 63 RC - .005" behind the edge.
S30V - 620 - Michael Raymond Estrella Custom - 60.5 - 61 RC - .006" behind the edge
S110V - 600 - Mule - 60 RC - .015" -.018" behind the edge.
S90V - 600 - Benchmade 940-1 - 59-61 RC - .018" Behind the edge.
S35VN - 560 - Fiddleback Forge Kephart - 60-61 RC - .015" Behind the Edge.
CTS-XHP - 540 - Cold Steel Ultimate Hunter - 63.5 RC - .020" behind the edge
CPM M4 - 500 - Spyderco Gayle Bradley - 62.5 - .022" behind the edge
S90V - 460 - Military - 60 RC
S90V/CPM 154 - Para 2 - 460 - ? RC
White Steel Laminate - 460 - HSC Custom - 63-64 HRC - .020" behind the edge
RWL-34 - Mule Team 22 - 440 - 61-62 RC - .020" Behind the edge
CTS 204P - 420 - Para 2
ZDP -189 - 420 - Endura 4 - 65 RC
Niolox - 420 - LX Blades - 59 - 59.5 RC - .006" behind the edge
BD1N - 420 - Phil Wilson - 60 HRC - .020" behind the edge
M390 - 400 - Benchmade 810-1401 Contego 60-62 RC
M390 - 380 - Military - 61 RC
ELMAX - 340 - ZT 0770CF - ? RC
ELMAX - 340 - Para 2 - ? RC
AEB-L - 340 - Tim Johnson Custom - 60 RC - .006" behind the edge
HAP-40 - 320 - Spyderco Endura - ? RC - .024" behind the edge
S35VN - 320 - Chris Reeve Sebenza 25 - ? RC - .021" behind the edge
CruForgeV - 300 - Bluntcut Custom - 62 HRC - .012" behind the edge
S30V - 300 - Military - 60 RC
PSF-27 - 280 - MT-19 - ? RC
Cru-Wear - 260 - Military - ? RC
CTS-XHP - 240 - Military - 60.5 RC
CTS-B75P - 240 - Mule
Sleipner - 240 - LionSteel PM2
Dozier D2 - 220 - Dozier K2
ELMAX - 220 - Mule - 58.5 RC
VG-10 - 160 - Stretch
AUS-8A - 160 - Recon 1
12c27 MOD - 120 - Opinel #8 - .012" behind the edge
XC90 - 80 - Opinel #8 - .012" behind the edge

Last edited: Dec 25, 2018

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_________________________________________________________
Above in 2010 and earlier tests on steals.

Spyderco has almost 50% of the tests.



Did very well BTW...

Note the bottom listings:

especially the S110Vs - the MULE is 60 RC the Manix 2 is 62 RC

That's why I bought the Manix...

[Traditional.Sharpening]

Note the bottom listings:

especially the S110Vs - the MULE is 60 RC the Manix 2 is 62 RC

That's why I bought the Manix...

This is my point exactly, you bought based on RC value but again we know nothing about the phase composition percentages for those examples which is a very important piece of the puzzle. I can understand why Spyderco doesn't heavily promote RC values for knives. Everybody seemingly wants a single number that will 'decide' performance but there is no such number.

Sure, there can be correlations but generally speaking correlation does not equal causation. Those knives you see as scoring well in those tests are above 60 RC, what does this prove? I see they are all high carbide steels, in this sort of test (clean materials which do not cause blunting by other means) you will see an increase in scores as carbide volume increases.

High Carbide steels tend to be 60+ RC tested, I've seen very few below that number. That doesn't mean RC is deciding those results in large part.

[swknight]

Agree with the science but wonder why the HIGHER RCs sure seem in great STEELS to out-preform the same steel with less hardness by doubling the cuts...