Finger Choil Ratios

[Toucan]

I like finger choils on knives in principle. But the 50/50 between the blade and handle just seems so inefficient. Especially on shorter knives like the Native. I'm definitley not saying edge to handle ratio is everything. The finger choil is a good compromise to edge length for greater control. But with for example, the Kapara, the finger choil is like 90% within the handle. I don't necessarily see any drawbacks to that sort of design choice.

I'm just wondering why it isn't implemented more often. I suspect there is a good reason that I'm just not thinking of.

Forgive me if this topic has been discussed into the ground already.

[Bolster]

But with for example, the Kapara, the finger choil is like 90% within the handle.

Agree!! I really like the choil-in-handle designs and would very much like to see more choils move further back into the handle, especially on medium and larger knives where there's sufficient room. (Obviously a knife like the Chap or the D'Fly wouldn't work well with a handle-embedded choil, not enough room). After all these years I still haven't purchased a Native because I don't want to give up the edge length that its large, on-the-blade choil requires. Brouwer doesn't even get consideration.

The Millie/Paramil/Para3 are other designs that push the choil back into the handle, to various degrees.

This argument tends to devolve into the big-handed people who like the choil into the blade for more grip room, vs. the not-big-handed people who would like to maximize the edge of their carry and don't worry about enough grip room. I wear a "L" size glove, but would like to see choils "Kapara-ize" and move back into handles more.

IMO, the Manix is begging for this mod.

[Evil D]

I think the Gayle Bradley 1 and Kapara are examples of perfect blade choils. If you simply must use some amount of the blade as a grip option, I don't see why it needs to eat up so much edge length to do it and those two do a great job of minimizing edge loss.

[Toucan]

IMO, the Manix is begging for this mod.

I concur! The Astute has 3mm more edge than a Manix2. That's pretty ridiculous to think about, considering how petite the Astute is.

[JSumm]

It is like a good but different whiskey. It is nice to have on the shelf, but I'm not going to drink it everyday.

I just got my first Native after gifting my Chaps and Para 3 away. I really like to have a smaller blade working on home projects. I like the ergos. I like the thicker handle when compared to the Chap and Delica, but for every day I just prefer choiless, so I probably will just use it around the house. Really nice to have, but not my first choice.

The Kapara on the other hand feels amazing. Maybe because the choil is so much in the handle that it gives you more room to move your hand around. Your freed up instead of locked in. In hand, it is probably my favorite.

[Toucan]

I think the Gayle Bradley 1 and Kapara are examples of perfect blade choils. If you simply must use some amount of the blade as a grip option, I don't see why it needs to eat up so much edge length to do it and those two do a great job of minimizing edge loss.

Yes! The Gayle Bradley 1 is one of those knives I wish they still made. It was discontinued back when knives in that price range weren't even on my radar. Knowing what I know now, I wish I had gotten one.

I also like it for having a "shallower" finger choil, like the Yojimbo2. The security of a deep choil is nice, but shallower tends to be more comfortable and precise -- at least to me.

[BornIn1500]

I concur! The Astute has 3mm more edge than a Manix2. That's pretty ridiculous to think about, considering how petite the Astute is.

Same with the Lil Temperance 3. It has the same edge length (2.9") as the Manix, but the Lil Temp is about 3/4" shorter in overall length.

[Wartstein]

....

Yes! The Gayle Bradley 1 is one of those knives I wish they still made. It was discontinued back when knives in that price range weren't even on my radar. Knowing what I know now, I wish I had gotten one.

I also like it for having a "shallower" finger choil, like the Yojimbo2. The security of a deep choil is nice, but shallower tends to be more comfortable and precise -- at least to me.

Cool!
That´s a point I always make, but you are the first one I can recall who obviously feels that way too!

- While a deeper choil often "feels" better when the knife is just held in hand or in light tasks, a shallower choil for me gives me more control and precision in real, harder use (one of the weird things with those youtube-knife-"testers". They just hold a knife out of the box, and do as if they´d be able to talk about its ergos just by that....)

- The reason for the above might (among others?) be, that shallower choils often times have a wider radius than deeper choils (so if one would complete the curve of a choil into a circle, that would result into a larger circle with the shallower choil)

[Wartstein]

My points:

- For me finger choils certainly make sense or are almost mandatory on very small knives like Dfly and Chap in order to offer space for four fingers in the first place (at least for a bit larger hands)

- Finger choils can also make sense in larger knives (Chief..), where there is still plenty of space on the handle behind the choil, so one gets (at least) two real good four finger grip options.

- Knives sized like the Native 5, Para 3 are the least suited for having a finger choil imho:
+ The handle part of the choil shortens the handle behind the choil to an amount, that there is not enough space for a good four finger grip behind the choil.
+The blade part of the choil shortens the amount of cutting edge.
+ So one ends up with just one good four finger grip option AND a short cutting edge. If there was no choil, and the grip area of the FRN/G10 handle NOT shortened by the handle part of that choil: This would result in a knife of the exact same size, a good four finger grip area, a hand still close to the edge, AND more cutting edge
+ That said; If one just does not need a lot of cutting edge, the concept of Para 3, Native 5.. is cool of course (love my old FRN Native, but as a very SMALL knife (due to the short edge) for special, and not general use).

- In prolongued use it can be nice to have TWO perfect four finger grip options for alternating grip periodically and avoiding hot spots by that. This is what a choil can offer!

- Gripping a knife with the finger in the choil also can actually give the option of a different / second blade angle
(Concerning how the blade is oriented relatively to the hand - just try for yourself!)

- I have to see knives like the Manix as (for me) really small folders (due to the short edge), but with superior grip options
In THAT specific niche I love my REX 45 Manix LW, but not as a "large knife" at all.

- But: Short edge but LONG blade (so with choil in the blade) has advantages over short edge AND SHORT blade (so no choil but the same edge length)
+ Reach
+Easier to keep the pivot clean
+ Better angle and clearance for the hand on a cutting board
+ As said above: Two (or more) grip options to alternate between for avoiding hot spots in prolongued use

[JSumm]

- Knives sized like the Native 5, Para 3 are the least suited for having a finger choil imho:

I think this is spot on.

[Toucan]

My points:

- For me finger choils certainly make sense or are almost mandatory on very small knives like Dfly and Chap in order to offer space for four fingers in the first place (at least for a bit larger hands)

- Finger choils can also make sense in larger knives (Chief..), where there is still plenty of space on the handle behind the choil, so one gets (at least) two real good four finger grip options.

- Knives sized like the Native 5, Para 3 are the least suited for having a finger choil imho:
+ The handle part of the choil shortens the handle behind the choil to an amount, that there is not enough space for a good four finger grip behind the choil.
+The blade part of the choil shortens the amount of cutting edge.
+ So one ends up with just one good four finger grip option AND a short cutting edge. If there was no choil, and the grip area of the FRN/G10 handle NOT shortened by the handle part of that choil: This would result in a knife of the exact same size, a good four finger grip area, a hand still close to the edge, AND more cutting edge
+ That said; If one just does not need a lot of cutting edge, the concept of Para 3, Native 5.. is cool of course (love my old FRN Native, but as a very SMALL knife (due to the short edge) for special, and not general use).

- In prolongued use it can be nice to have TWO perfect four finger grip options for alternating grip periodically and avoiding hot spots by that. This is what a choil can offer!

- Gripping a knife with the finger in the choil also can actually give the option of a different / second blade angle
(Concerning how the blade is oriented relatively to the hand - just try for yourself!)

- I have to see knives like the Manix as (for me) really small folders (due to the short edge), but with superior grip options
In THAT specific niche I love my REX 45 Manix LW, but not as a "large knife" at all.

- But: Short edge but LONG blade (so with choil in the blade) has advantages over short edge AND SHORT blade (so no choil but the same edge length)
+ Reach
+Easier to keep the pivot clean
+ Better angle and clearance for the hand on a cutting board
+ As said above: Two (or more) grip options to alternate between for avoiding hot spots in prolongued use

All good points! It's kinda funny that with finger choils, it's like the opposite of the Goldilocks rule; too big and too small are preferable to a medium size

[Wartstein]

......

All good points! It's kinda funny that with finger choils, it's like the opposite of the Goldilocks rule; too big and too small are preferable to a medium size

Yep, as said: For me if one wants a versatile, as ready for "everything" as possible EDC folder, on Native sized knives a finger choil does not make much sense. Since a longer cutting edge has so many advantages imho when it comes to versatility (and also things like how long a knife will stay sharp and so on).

But again: If one just knows they´ll never need more than a short edge, or don´t care to deal with that: Native sized knives with finger choil can still be a great choice of course (and I think actually look very cool with that choil...)

[aicolainen]

......

All good points! It's kinda funny that with finger choils, it's like the opposite of the Goldilocks rule; too big and too small are preferable to a medium size

Yep, as said: For me if one wants a versatile, as ready for "everything" as possible EDC folder, on Native sized knives a finger choil does not make much sense. Since a longer cutting edge has so many advantages imho when it comes to versatility (and also things like how long a knife will stay sharp and so on).

But again: If one just knows they´ll never need more than a short edge, or don´t care to deal with that: Native sized knives with finger choil can still be a great choice of course (and I think actually look very cool with that choil...)

Though I totally agree, one also has to look at what real estate the choil is actually occupying, and what its realistic potential is.
If we look at back locks, like the Native, the designer is basically torn between three possible design options for that particular real estate; a plain ricasso, handle forward or a choil. It's not really gobbling up real estate at the expense of edge length. Maybe a little bit, but not much. On other knives with other lock types, probably more so.


If I line up the pivots of a Native 5 and a Pac salt 2, we see that there is only marginally more edge length consumed by the choil. Could it have been less? I really don't know. The N5 has a reputation of having a much more solid lockup than the PS2, how much that would have been affected by a shorter choil/ricasso is not for me to speculate on, but I wouldn't think there is potential for a lot more edge length on this particular design.

[mtstewart83088]

Nice topic! The choil on the dragonfly is what drew me to Spyderco. IMO, A perfect example of a good choil is the Domino or Dice. Absolutely perfect knife in every way. The Native might not need a choil due to the size, but it did work out great for the Lil Native...