Cardboard cutting; Steel vs. Geometry

[weeping minora]

Hello there all,


Since the heights of super steeldom seems to have no foreseeable end as to what steel we'll see summoned into a handle next; I thought it interesting to ask how everyone felt about certain steels performing better for cardboard cutting and whether you'd attribute a certain steel as "better" based on the composition of the steel itself, or the geometry of the blade? I've seen/read many of the statistical testing data sheets (huge thanks to Ankerson!) and I recently found VG10 (Delica) to stand up better in EDC cardboard cutting in comparison to S30V and even XHP (both in the Manix 2 format). All three steels were newsprint slicing sharp and while the Delica received notable dulling during my usage, it still out-sliced the other steels regardless of edge retention. After usage, the only steel to cut notebook paper cleanly was S30V. Both VG10 and XHP (albeit to a lesser degree) caught the paper at a certain point. No visible edge deterioration was seen upon inspection on any of the three knives. This was an unscientifically unaccounted amount of usage, though I put each knife through a similar amount of paces. In practice, I found the VG10 to actually be superior to either of the other mentioned steels, though statistically it's not nearly within the same class. I'd attribute these findings moreso to the geometry, rather than the steels themselves.


This makes me wonder how some of the super steels would react in regards to being in a different format of knife. Since I've strayed away from super steels due to not really needing them in my daily usage, for those who have, what's your take on steel vs. geometry for EDC and which would you find most useful for actual cardboard cutting throughout your day? That being said, which steel would you like to see most in any given Spyderco?

[Bloke]

I think you'll find edge geometry is far more important than the blade material or how sharp the blade actually is. :)

Have a search for a topic titled Fun With Edge Geometry (I think) by Evil D if you like and I'm sure you'll find it very interesting. :cool:

[weeping minora]

I think you'll find edge geometry is far more important than the blade material or how sharp the blade actually is. :)

Have a search for a topic titled Fun With Edge Geometry (I think) by Evil D if you like and I'm sure you'll find it very interesting. :cool:

An interesting read indeed; will have to look into the whole posting there. Thank you for the recommendation Bloke! Much appreciated.

[Bloke]

You're most welcome! :)

[Evil D]

It's a very interesting subject because there are so many things to consider. Edge/blade geometry absolutely does impact cutting ability and even edge retention to a degree but if it were that simple we would all be carrying super thin 440 blades and we'd all be happy. All things being equal the properties of a steel are still present in a thin blade so if you compared two identically ground blades, one with a less wear resistant steel and one with an extremely wear resistant steel, you'll still see longer edge retention out of the higher wear resistant knife. The question comes when you consider the use of the knife, how thin of an edge/blade can you get away with for your uses? Thinner blades and edges are also easier to sharpen, so in my mind the argument about ease of sharpening is less important on those higher end steels that are typically hard and wear resistant and more difficult to sharpen because the bevels are so much thinner they become much easier to sharpen. Of course again, all things being equal the lower end steels are also that much easier to sharpen.

Something worth considering is a steel's toughness and how well it handles a thin edge (edge stability). Some steels really excel at very thin edges and seem to hold fine edges better, which should work hand in hand with thin ground blades. On the other hand I've read some people who believe that high carbide steels are great for this because the edge will constantly fracture out carbides in a way similar to a shark losing teeth, and the edge will always be aggressive. That's getting a little over my head though. What I know for sure is simply that blade grind geometry can make any steel both slice better and be easier to sharpen, so I don't see any reason not to grind blades thinner, at least up to the point where you're risking blade damage because the steel isn't hard enough or is brittle for a given job.

[The Mastiff]

Geometry, hardness and carbide type and fraction. Note though that throw away blades on razor knives are tough to beat. That illustrates the importance of geometry.

Joe

[Wanimator]

At work I notice stockers zipping through fine cutting tasks and rough a like with a little box cutter... I have a hard time arguing a larger more expensive option in light of seeing real use examples like that and the maintainence most people just can't put into a knife to make it function like that.

[ZrowsN1s]

Geometry, hardness and carbide type and fraction. Note though that throw away blades on razor knives are tough to beat. That illustrates the importance of geometry.

Joe

Geometry is definitely important. That they get thrown away when they are too dull also illustrates the importance of staying sharp.

[zhyla]

At work I notice stockers zipping through fine cutting tasks and rough a like with a little box cutter... I have a hard time arguing a larger more expensive option in light of seeing real use examples like that and the maintainence most people just can't put into a knife to make it function like that.

Well, it's not quite fair to compare something disposable and made of plain high carbon steel to something that's meant to hold an edge and look pretty and not chip out like crazy under abuse. EDC folders are not single-purpose tools and aren't supposed to compete with things like box cutters, diagonal clippers, weed whackers, meat cleavers, etc, etc, etc.

[Joris Mo]

I usually end up prefering a good grind over a great steel, out of about 100 Spydies and some other nice knives my favorite/best cutters for last year have probably been my VG10 Stretch 2 and my UKPK in BD1..
Would love to get both in M4 or some other cool steels but also like them very much like this.

[Joshua J.]

My ZDP Caly 3 at 5dps feels dull as a butter knife right now, but cuts 1/4” Leather better than almost anything else.
A shaving edge won’t last more than a few minutes no matter what if you’re cutting rough material, but with the right blade geometry you can keep going for a very long time.

My understanding is steel type is not particularly important in this situation.

[JD Spydo]

One of the very best cardboard cutters I ever had was my Spyderedged Dodo model. It was even way better than any standard utility/box cutting knife I ever had. And the design and blade geometry of the Dodo was really made for cutting cardboard but few people ever talked about it.

Which is why I never could figure why they never brought back the Dodo model in full Spyderedge. Also I cut a lot of cardboard with my old G-10 Harpy as well.

[gaj999]

I'd love to see the advantages of super steels used to optimize geometry instead of showing up in the same geometry as knives that are acceptably user-proof in VG-10 or S30V ... I'm thinking that you could often reduce blade thickness by half. Now we'd be cooking with gas.

[Wanimator]

Seriously though, a DoDo with said blade shape and a "slicer" variety in something more conventional in a more affordable bundle would be extraordinary.

[Doc Dan]

I think blade thickness and edge geometry have more to do with it than steel type. I think it was Ankerson (or somebody) who had a SAK that outperformed S30V and etc. in cutting rope. It was clearly the thin blade and edge making the difference, and not the steel.

[JD Spydo]

Seriously though, a DoDo with said blade shape and a "slicer" variety in something more conventional in a more affordable bundle would be extraordinary.

Hey I like your comment on the DODO model which I mentioned earlier but I'm just a tiny bit confused :confused: So are you saying that the Dodo model as we already know and love it with some modifications is what you want? Because believe me the full Spyderedged Dodo that they only made in the first run back in the early 2000s decade ( probably around 2003 or thereabout) is already a box cutter's dream blade.

Now my blue PE Dodo is also a beast for cutting cardboard but just isn't quite as aggressive as the Spyderedged Dodo.

So are you saying you would want the Dodo with some modifications on it's blade geometry? If so tell us what you would change. Because I feel if they would just give us a Sprint Run of the Spyderedged Dodo you would have all the knife you would need for cutting cardboard boxes. Actually it's kind of a carefully hidden secret how really aggressive the original SE Dodo was>> and still is if you can find one at an affordable price. Yeah I had a Brother not too long ago offer me one for $200+ and if I remember correctly it was used :rolleyes: But we are way overdue for a Sprint Run of that mini-beast anyway. I truly believe that the Dodo model ( PE or SE) is probably the best small bladed folder in Spyder History :cool:

[Evil D]

So are you saying that the Dodo model as we already know and love it with some modifications is what you want?

It definitely would perform better in FFG. Thick/low hollow or saber grinds just do not compare to FFG when it comes to corrugated. Some of the "wedging" can be offset if you're able to angle the blade during the cut, but you just can't cheat physics and a thinner ground blade is always going to perform better regardless of edge type.

[Wanimator]

I'd like an FFG, or existing DoDo and one with a Wharnecliffe blade a long the lines of Yojimbo 2, and one with a blade similar to a Paramilitary or Military.

[Bill1170]

I imagine the PE Dodo performs similarly to a large radius hook blade for a utility knife. Trap that corrugated in that curve near the tip and unzip it!

[Evil D]

Just a random note on corrugated. About a decade ago I worked in the industry making the stuff for a few years. What people may not realize is how many grades of the stuff there is, and those different grades all cut differently. Some of it is much easier to cut, and not just because it's thinner, some of the paper is more rigid or the flutes are different sizes, even the quality of paper and manufacturing come into play. It really isn't the best testing material for "scientific testing" unless you can use the same grade of corrugated for all tests.