Ceramic Bench Stone

[aesmith]

Hi,

Just wondered how people get on with the ceramic bench stones? Currently I use cheap waterstones but I'll need to do something because my fine stone (a King 6000 grit) is wearing out, and is also a little small. This isn't just for knives, it will mostly be used for sharpening plane irons, chisels etc. I'm undecided whether to stick with waterstones (although I'm fed up with messing around with water etc), or whether to switch to ceramic or possible to Arkansas.

As far as I can see the advantages to ceramic would be that they stay flat, and less mess in use. Disadvantages would be less choice of size and grade than waterstones, and some reports that the ceramic stones are difficult to clean when they get loaded.

Thanks,

Tony S

[JD Spydo]

I have two sets of the Spyderco 302 Benchstones i.e. medium, fine & Ultra-fine. I used them as recently as last night. I use them at least once a week. I also have what is known as a Norton triple flip system>> which is a device in which you can rig three of Norton's benchstones to rotate accordingly.

One device I've been experimenting with lately to enhance my usage of my Spyderco 302 Benchstones which is a "Sharpening Guide" made by "Razor Edge Systems" out of Ely, Minnesota. You clamp them onto the spine of the blade and it works to sharpen the knife at a fixed angle thus eliminating human error and inconsistency. I've been having very nice results with both sharpening guides ( small & large) for folders and fixed blades as well.

As much as I dearly love Spyderco's 204 Sharpmaker I am finding myself using my Spyderco Benchstones more than I have in the past.

[aesmith]

Cheers. Do you use the ceramic stones dry, or do you use water or something on them? I've seen some comments about the stones being difficult to clean after dry use, one guy said you had to dress them with a diamond stone.

[arty]

I like the Spyderco ceramic stones for high chromium steels, and use them dry. It is easy to clean them with cleanser and a ScotchBrite pad. I use other stones for tool blades, because I like flat stones for tools. Depending on my mood, I might use Arkansas stones, India, or waterstones. I have a Lilly White Washita that is great for initial sharpening of plane irons.
The Spyderco medium and fine stones get the most use. They are very convenient and worth the cost. I find they don't work so well when wet, and don't use them that way.

[Cliff Stamp]

Hi,

Disadvantages would be less choice of size and grade than waterstones, and some reports that the ceramic stones are difficult to clean when they get loaded.

They are fairly easy to clean, just use a regular eraser. They are very different than waterstones as they are not going to break down in use which means since they don't release abrasive they will just get finer and cut slower each time you use them. The Spyderco Fine will apply a finish comparable to a 6000 grit King.

The only problem you might have, and this is going to depend on just how particular you are about edges, is that the Spyderco stones don't always come perfectly flat. If you are sharpening very wide and very flat edges and you are very particular about angles, especially micro-bevels, you might end up wanting to flatten the Spyderco stones.

Now you are used to this if you are using stones like the King, however the Spyderco stones are solid sintered abrasive. It will take a LOT longer and they will even hold the finish of whatever you use to lap them for awhile as they have such a strong bond. This means if you have one of the stones you can lap one side with a coarse abrasive and the other side with a very fine one and get essentially a dual pseudo-girt stone.

[aesmith]

Thanks Cliff, that's all good information. It also confirms a comment on one of the woodworking boards where the guy commented that the Spyderco "Medium" was quite a lot finer than he expected. I suppose the Ultra Fine must be comparable to a water stone of around 10,000. From what you say the Fine might be a good start. I don't think flatness is going to be a problem unless it's wildly off. I'm used to working with not quite flat stones, and in actual fact I sharpen my wider plane irons with a slight curvature. Rebate and shoulder plane irons need to be dead straight and square, but tend to be smaller.

[Cliff Stamp]

I would caution against putting a grit label on solid ceramic stones because it can lead to fairly misleading conclusions. A stone that forms a slurry leaves a finish which is strongly influenced by the condition of the slurry. For example :



and this :



Are actually from almost identical grits, however the first one is used with a very thick and silty slurry, the second one is from a stone with a flushed surface which leaves a much more coarse finish.

Here is an example of the finish sharpness from the Spyderco Fine :

https://youtu.be/631VTbWLCcs

As the stone produces no slurry it is very easy to get very high sharpness as there is no impaction/rounding of the apex from the slurry. The main issue is to avoid burr formation so you want to have the edge well suited to take a micro-bevel and apply one with very light force using a lubricant.

Note the only difference in the Fine and Ultra Fine is the surface finish, they both are the same abrasive. You could therefore get a Fine stone, make one side UF and just polish it with a very fine lapping abrasive and thus end up with a dual grit stone.

[JD Spydo]

Hi,

Disadvantages would be less choice of size and grade than waterstones, and some reports that the ceramic stones are difficult to clean when they get loaded.

They are fairly easy to clean, just use a regular eraser. They are very different than waterstones as they are not going to break down in use which means since they don't release abrasive they will just get finer and cut slower each time you use them. The Spyderco Fine will apply a finish comparable to a 6000 grit King.

Hey Cliff I've used the regular artist's erasers ( the gum type) and the conventional pencil erasers as well and I have had fairly good results in a pinch or when I'm in the field or in a hurry. But for the most part I still like to use Bar Keeper's Friend cleanser that you can find in the grocery or hardware stores next to the Ajax and Comet. The reason I like to use BKF is after I clean the Spyderco ceramic stones with BKF it seems like the stones have a very uniform bite to them when putting a final edge on a really sharp blade.

But Cliff ( or any of you for that matter?) have you tried that Mr. Clean "Magic Eraser"? Because I hear that's the best thing you can use on most any benchstone ( excluding diamond). I've yet to try it on Spyderco ceramic stones but I have heard that it cleans about as good as BKF does.

Also do any of you guys soak your benchstones overnight before cleaning?

[Cliff Stamp]

Also do any of you guys soak your benchstones overnight before cleaning?

They are solid ceramic, I don't think that would make much difference unless you are soaking them in something which dissolves metal.

I like to use pencils though so I always have a bunch of erasers. Most cleaners contain acids or bases and Bar Keepers Friend actually contains abrasives which are likely to actually effect the finish of the stone. Most of the acids/bases have issues with prolonged exposure to skin. I generally don't want to trouble with using gloves when doing simple stone maintenance.

But again a plain eraser seems to clean the ones I have fine.

They do get smoother with use though, so if you don't recondition the surface at some point they will start burnishing more than cutting.

[stalag2]

If you dont use much pressure i found that a spritz of naphta, wd40 or mineral oil on a piece of rag works wonder to clean ceramic rods and stones but it wont remove the shiny steel spots you typically get on the medium with higher pressure.
It worths noting that since i use a lubricant while sharpening i rarely have to take them to the sink anymore. Lapping them also has an effect on how easily they allow the swarf to come off.

If you are concerned about them wearing and getting smooth quite fast, avoid to scrub them with Scotchbrite as the abrasive in them will put more wear than a knife blade would, Scotchbrite use Alox or Sic so essentially you are dulling the abrasive by scrubbing them hard.
Lots of people will tell you this has no effects but if you compare a fresh ceramic to a 10 years old rod that got used and scrubbed heavily the difference is quite noticeable.

[Brunzenstein48]

Anyone knows what kind of abrasive a regular pencil (blue/red) erasers contains?
Could they change the characteristic of the ceramic rods over time?

[stalag2]

I think it is just sand in the blue, so i dont think they will induce much wear as it is only a tad harder than a regular blade.
On the other hand i think the abrasive used in magic erasers and such abrasive rubbers is Sic so it is a bit harder than the alumina ceramic.

[jackknifeh]

Thanks Cliff, that's all good information. It also confirms a comment on one of the woodworking boards where the guy commented that the Spyderco "Medium" was quite a lot finer than he expected. I suppose the Ultra Fine must be comparable to a water stone of around 10,000. From what you say the Fine might be a good start. I don't think flatness is going to be a problem unless it's wildly off. I'm used to working with not quite flat stones, and in actual fact I sharpen my wider plane irons with a slight curvature. Rebate and shoulder plane irons need to be dead straight and square, but tend to be smaller.

For what I consider them good for I LOVE the Spyderco ceramic stones. I have the fine and UF bench stones. I gave away my UF 2" wide when I got the 3" wide UF stone. What I consider them good for is excellent performance in the higher grit range of stones. I even use the UF stone for honing straight razors. It works fine right after an 8k Shapton glass water stone and prior to stropping. I think 10,000 grit is a pretty good estimate. I normally strop after honing with a felt strop with .5 micron CBN spray then a kangaroo strop. But, the point I'm making is the UF Spyderco ceramic stone is a nice high grit that is acceptable for straight razors IMO. That says a lot regarding performance. I've been honing straight razors only for 1.5 years so I'm no pro but I get them to shave very nicely. IMO the UF is the candles on the icing on the cake when it comes to knife edges. It's great but not essential. The medium and fine are great for maintaining your knife edges. I also agree the medium is not really a stone for reprofiling or using when a lot of steel is being removed. It's a nice grit to leave a toothy edge or to prepare for the fine stone. But if a knife is already nice and sharp the med. and fine Spyderco stones will keep them that way for years IMO. I also use diamond stones (DMT XC thru EF) and Shapton glass water stones (320 through 16k). So I can reprofile any blade steel and for any blade steel I also have seen the Spyderco med and fine (and UF) keep my knives sharp with no other stones needed. I think you could reprofile with the Spyderco med. grit but it would just take more time.

So IMO, anyone with a med and fine grit Spyderco stone and then something a little coarser for heavier steel removal needs has all they need to maintain the edges on any knives. I've bought one 2" wide fine stone and two 2" wide UF stones and finally one 3" wide UF stone. I now have the 2" fine and 3" UF stones. A forum friend loaned me the medium stone for a couple of weeks so I did get to use it. But having the other stones (DMT and Shapton) to cover that grit range I haven't bought the med. stone yet. I may one day though. It is a nice stone and even leaves a nice toothy edge if that's what you want. As the other guy said, the med grit isn't really a coarser stone. I don't know what grit comparison. Maybe 600??? That's a guess. I've heard a couple of people mention the ceramic stones not being flat. Mine have been just fine. The only thing I did to my 3" wide UF stone was to "lap" it with some 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper because when honing razors I could feel one or two TINY little bumps on the stone surface. I could feel them as the razor edge passed over the stone but I couldn't feel them with my fingers. After a quick lapping with the 400 grit sandpaper the little bumps were gone and the razors glide along the stone like passing over glass. Hope this helps.

Jack

[Brunzenstein48]

I think it is just sand in the blue, so i dont think they will induce much wear as it is only a tad harder than a regular blade.
On the other hand i think the abrasive used in magic erasers and such abrasive rubbers is Sic so it is a bit harder than the alumina ceramic.

To be on the save side, I have chosen a simple plastic eraser for cleaning the rods - with throughout satisfying results and far less effort then going the wet path.

[jackknifeh]

About cleaning the ceramic stones. I got one of those erasers (from CKGT I think). I use it when the stone starts getting a little darker than I like during a sharpening session. I maybe use the eraser every 10 minutes or so. No real schedule. But I don't consider them a good long term cleaning tool. I have used Comet and the green scrubby pads and that works pretty good. Real good actually. I have also used toothpaste and a toothbrush and that works also. But the best thing I've seen is Barkeeper's Friend cleanser and the green scrubby pad. That stuff gets the white stones closer to brand new white than anything else I've used. I don't know if that means the stones will work any better than after using Comet or not. I got a scrubby pad that is thicker and also mounted on a handle and that is really great. The regular cheaper pads flop around a little when scrubbing the stone and that splatters the Barkeeper's Friend all over the sink. Wife has two heart attacks (first :eek:, then :mad:) if I forget to clean it up. :) The handle scrub pad doesn't make a mess. Barkeeper's Friend is sold at my local Lowe's and recently my Wal Mart started carrying it.

Before I found out they had it at Lowe's the Wal Mart here didn't carry it. So a forum friend sent me some to try. So if anyone can't find it locally and wants to try it I'll mail them some. PM me an address if you can't find it locally. I'm paying it forward like they did in the movie with Helen Hunt and Kevin Spacey. Her son (Haley Joel Osment) did someone a favor and for them to repay the favor they were supposed to do someone else a favor.

Jack

[xinam]

I may have missed it... but yet to see any mention of the Golden stone. I got one about 8 mos ago and frankly didn't care for it. Just didn't seem to get the job done, not like my other ceramics anyhow. I did some research and found a video where Sal mention "cracking" the surface of the ceramic. That was a game changer. I had always used comet to clean my old rods and continue to do so, I alternate between comet and bar keepers friend, I don't see much if any difference in the cleaning. I have noticed with more use and cleaning the more I like the way it performs. The shape lends it to all sorts of possibilities, like ease of holding/handling. I often touch up knives in my recliner now :)

[JD Spydo]

About cleaning the ceramic stones. I got one of those erasers (from CKGT I think). I use it when the stone starts getting a little darker than I like during a sharpening session. But the best thing I've seen is Barkeeper's Friend cleanser and the green scrubby pad. That stuff gets the white stones closer to brand new white than anything else I've used. I don't know if that means the stones will work any better than after using Comet or not. I got a scrubby pad that is thicker and also mounted on a handle and that is really great.

Jack again I find myself on the same page you're on I just swear by BAR KEEPER's FRIEND cleanser>> it's unique as far as cleansers go because it works on more of a chemical action than it does on an abrasive action like Comet & Ajax do. If I ever find any cleanser that works as good as Bar Keeper's Friend does on cleaning sharpening stones I will use it immediately.

And like I told Cliff on another thread it sure seems like the stones after usinig BKF seem to have a very uniform bite to them. And I also find they do a consistent job as well. I am however going to take's Cliff's challenge and try out a bunch of different erasers to see how they all work on ceramic sharpening stones. I just today tried the Mr. Clean MAGIC erasers and I will say they are different than just about anything else I've used but so far I do like the results I'm getting.

But overall I don't think there are any surefire shortcuts to giving these ceramic stones a thorough cleaning>> so I still maintain that BKF is still at the top of my list for cleaning a heavily used stone. I am particular with my ceramic stones because I usually only sharpen two and never more than three blades before I give them a thorough cleaning. The fact that the ceramic stones load up quickly is really the only big negative to using them.

[Cliff Stamp]

And like I told Cliff on another thread it sure seems like the stones after usinig BKF seem to have a very uniform bite to them.

It contains a mineral abrasive so what you are doing is essentially grinding another abrasive into the surface of the stone which is likely scratching the surface which makes it more aggressive.

I did some searches on line and did not turn up what they used, but quartz is referred to by others (second hand) as what is used in some similar products.

I don't have any, but if I see someone using it I'll grab a bit. It would be fairly easy to look at the surface under magnification to see if it is getting scratched by the cleaner.

[aesmith]

Note the only difference in the Fine and Ultra Fine is the surface finish, they both are the same abrasive. You could therefore get a Fine stone, make one side UF and just polish it with a very fine lapping abrasive and thus end up with a dual grit stone.

That's interesting, but makes me wonder why the UF stones are so much more expensive than F.

[Brunzenstein48]

Seems that the oxalic acid within BCF does most of the cleaning - as well as the quartz can be highly aggressive. Or?