s35vn compared to s30v?

[bh49]

Throwing around a degree is cool and all, but it all just sounds like excuses to me.

Throwing around degrees may doesn't mean much. Years of experience meant that there are people or companies, which pay you money for what you do for years. You cannot fool them for long time.
About your testing, the problem is that you do not know, what you do not know. And unfortunately you do not understand, what you do not understand.
Do yourself a favor read some books about testing, variation of processes, measurement uncertainty and you will be able to improve you tests to something meaningful. Also check out Ankerson's testing, they are very good for home lab.

[Clip]

No one tried to duplicate...so yeah. Lol

I know you guys refuse to think that there's any possible way that anything I do has any merit, but all I did was use the knife. I used a knife, on camera, and it performed terribly. I don't see anyone else doing the same.

All I see is the same "steel X or Y has done great for me!!" No one is willing to SHOW that the knife does well for them.

What was the test nobody will duplicate? Not sure which videos you're referring to. If you could post a quick procedure or write up of how you tested it would help others who would like to independently verify results.

[Cliff Stamp]

What I take offense to is the people who like to say that my results are invalid, yet they are unwilling to do ANY cutting on video to show that my results are invalid.

Why would that offend you, it would be like having a conversation about vocal power and range in rock vocalists and someone jamming right into the conversation about how Justin Bieber would totally pwn Freddy Mercury.

[Ankerson]

Not understanding where this thread is going... :confused:

S35VN has less Vanadium than S30V so going by alloy content S30V should and does have more wear resistance.

As Cliff stated S30V beat S35VN in the CATRA tests as it should have again based on alloy content.

Also the difference is relatively small between the two steels so taking into count the variables that could be present they could perform the same and or the differences could be more noticeable.

Both are good steels and perform as designed in knives that are made well by reputable companies.

I tested the Native 5, both on video and off and it performed as expected both times in my testing.

[noseoil]

OK folks, group hug here. I'm thinking that there are a "few" variables here which need to be taken into account. One test is a valid test of itself. A hundred tests become much more significant due to a leveling of variables, but it makes each individual blade less significant.

The difference in heat treat can make a huge difference in any steel and it is possible to get a bad treat from any manufacturer. We could have a s35vn blade perform better than a s30v blade, just due to the heat treat and nothing else.

Grinding is another wild card. Was the steel over-heated in one part of the blade, thus destroying the temper and making the blade useless for testing? Throw out this test as well, but not before administering a hardness test as a proof.

Just sayin' that all of the variables come into play with each individual blade, along with sharpening ability, grit & finish, test medium, etc. etc. etc. I much prefer to read about these tests, ponder the results, then buy the knife I enjoy. Is it the ne plus ultra of all knives in the world, or the more pedestrian Opinel of all users? Glad there are choices to make.

OK, sorry for the digression, back to the brawl!

[jabba359]

Give me two identical knives with unmarked blades, the only difference being one is S30V and one is S35VN, and I wouldn't be able to tell you which is which after use.

Differences in heat treat, edge geometry and grit, and blade profile will likely make a bigger difference than the slight difference in alloy content between the two steels.

[chuck_roxas45]

Post #120 might be a good place to start....

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... st12597312

[Per-Sev]

The worst thing I have ever happen was to a CRK I loaned to a buddy for deer season and when he returned it the blade was so chipped up I was not sure I could get them out. I asked what he used it for and he said to gut and process a few deer. I wish I had some pics but that was long before I even had a computer. The blade was ATS-34 and I believe he had quite a few complaints about that batch of knives. I know he switched to BG-42 after that and I had one of those knives and it was great steel held a edge forever. Then I had his S30V blade and it dulled very fast cutting cardboard at work, sold it then he changed to his current steel S35VN I bought one of those and was not to happy with the edge holding on it either, sold it. I think he keeps the heat treat lower for one reason not to repeat the problem he had with the ATS-34 but also so the people using his blades in the military can sharpen them in the field. I had some of the first knives made by CRK and I think his biggest mistake was changing from BG-42, that was some good steel and if I found one of his knives made with it now I would be very tempted to buy it. I guess what I am saying is its more so the heat treat than the steel in most cases.
I have had a knife from just about every well known knife maker over the 30 plus years I have collected knives while some where good some were not and it takes more than a pretty knife to be a good knife and the steel is the heart while some makers choose to do there own heat treat and do a good job sometimes its better left to the heat treat company's that specialize in the super steels we like to day.

[Blerv]

Post #120 might be a good place to start....

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... st12597312

Post # 120 is brought me to this.

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/profile. ... ignorelist

[Cliff Stamp]

What was the test nobody will duplicate?

John does rope cutting tests which are basically :

-cut a specific length of rope on a cutting board
-check sharpness on newsprint

One of the most dramatic results was on a S35VN Sebenza :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1oq7PzjJkY

The edge didn't simply go blunt fast the actual bevel itself, not the apex, the actual edge bevel deformed to the side.

A number of people tried to argue this was due to John cutting into the board, torquing too hard when he was cutting the rope and other similar excuses. All of these fail because those are far too low an order of stress. That bevel deforming indicates a severe failure in that knife and the manufacturer should replace it immediately.

Now was it because of a flaw in the steel, the processing by the manufacturer, the HT by the maker, the final grinding - that is unknown but one of them or some combination produced a horribly flawed product because a knife with an edge thicker than an axe deformed on very soft materials. I have not even seen that happen on $5 kitchen knives.

Now while John takes a lot of flack for not drawing valid conclusions, it has to be realized that he doesn't just do the rope cutting. He also does cardboard, carpet and other misc. work to check the rope cutting and he does EDC rotation carry as well and he combines all of that, and then all of it with all the knives he has done it with to reach a conclusion.

Yes the methods could be improved to produce a more unbiased result but that is true for any method and biased isn't a pejorative, it simply means different from the true value.

It is also possible to discuss the methods with him. I do it all the time, last I heard we were still on speaking terms.

[dragonram7]

I've only heard tales of this test so I'll pass them on an make the rumors grow even larger.

I heard someone took a Sebenza and cut a Manila rope and the edge rolled so bad it looked like the gutter on a house. This obviously means that Reeve doesn't know how to make knives and probably doesn't deserve Blade's manufacturing award for so many years, and Crucible makes crap steel.

Then again, I'm sure every knife maker has a bad heat treat once in a while. It's how they remedy the situation that matters.

Sorry, Sunday. 3 hours of church. It's a utah thing.
I found the video by googling s35vn vs. Elmax. I was debating the zt 0550 vs. Zt 0560. I bought the Manix for one son, so the other son didn't want to copy his older brother. I bought the zt 0350 & zt 0560 instead.
As far as the crk sabenza, Chris knows how to make a knife. I have the S30V and it is perfection. Chris has a lot of experience with steel.
After I read up on the S35VN, sadly I went with a proven metals format. I really wanted the S35VN to work. I just didn't want to risk the dollars or potentially getting a steel my son can't rely on.

[CrimsonTideShooter]

Throwing around degrees may doesn't mean much. Years of experience meant that there are people or companies, which pay you money for what you do for years. You cannot fool them for long time.
About your testing, the problem is that you do not know, what you do not know. And unfortunately you do not understand, what you do not understand.
Do yourself a favor read some books about testing, variation of processes, measurement uncertainty and you will be able to improve you tests to something meaningful. Also check out Ankerson's testing, they are very good for home lab.

The only knives I'll be testing from here on out are my own, so it's really a moot point. I'm through with doing demos of any sort on any other knife than the one's I've made.

I'm very familiar with the scientific process, and what constitutes a valid, repeatable, unbiased test. You seem to think it's very easy to come up with one. Ankerson's tests are great, but truly scientific, unbiased, and accurate they are not - if we are using the same logic you just displayed here.

About the ONLY truly accurate method we have using your logic is the CATRA, and that's a fundamentally flawed system as well if we are wanting to measure how a knife will perform in real life use.






What I can say, is that despite the fast that my demos are not scientific, I can still draw some pretty accurate conclusions from them.......because I use my knives - a LOT. I cut many, many, many different materials - many, many, many times over with many, many, many knives. Rope and cardboard are just the things I care to record.

[CrimsonTideShooter]

Post #120 might be a good place to start....

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... st12597312

Lol. I'm looking forward to the next pristine knife laid on a flower picture bro! It's funny that when we encounter each other, your posts are almost always a veiled ad hominem attack on my character. It's fine if you're unable to add any valuable ideas for either point of view.

[Ankerson]

John does rope cutting tests which are basically :

-cut a specific length of rope on a cutting board
-check sharpness on newsprint

One of the most dramatic results was on a S35VN Sebenza :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1oq7PzjJkY

The edge didn't simply go blunt fast the actual bevel itself, not the apex, the actual edge bevel deformed to the side.

I remember that one...

The edge on a knife will fail one of two ways, it will roll or it will chip so the knife maker/companies have to decide what way they want that to happen. That's controlled by blade and edge geometry along with the HT process. It's a fine balance that has to be met in the end.

Can't comment on that test in the video because I wasn't there and didn't see exactly what happened to the edge. Sounds like it rolled to me so CRK chose to have the edge roll instead of chip. That also would make the blades easier to sharpen due to the lower HRC hardness of the blades.

I have had S30V roll on me pretty good a few times when I accidentally hit metal with the edge as an example and that was at 60 RC.

[CrimsonTideShooter]

I remember that one...

The edge on a knife will fail one of two ways, it will roll or it will chip so the knife maker/companies have to decide what way they want that to happen. That's controlled by blade and edge geometry along with the HT process. It's a fine balance that has to be met in the end.

Can't comment on that test in the video because I wasn't there and didn't see exactly what happened to the edge. Sounds like it rolled to me so CRK chose to have the edge roll instead of chip. That also would make the blades easier to sharpen due to the lower HRC hardness of the blades.

I have had S30V roll on me pretty good a few times when I accidentally hit metal with the edge as an example and that was at 60 RC.

It wasn't a roll, it was a complete warping of the secondary bevel. It was completely pushed over to one side. The edge was still somewhat serviceable, but you couldn't cut with it since the bevel was significantly pushed over to one side. :)

[Ankerson]

It wasn't a roll, it was a complete warping of the secondary bevel. It was completely pushed over to one side. The edge was still somewhat serviceable, but you couldn't cut with it since the bevel was significantly pushed over to one side. :)

Sounds like a more severe roll to me as in it didn't chip out...

Had that happen with S30V as I stated in the other post, but that was after hitting metal.. Edge was folded over to one side pretty good, like a really large burr folded over.

Would rather have that happen than a large chip personally. :)

[bh49]

What I can say, is that despite the fast that my demos are not scientific, I can still draw some pretty accurate conclusions from them.......because I use my knives - a LOT. I cut many, many, many different materials - many, many, many times over with many, many, many knives. Rope and cardboard are just the things I care to record.

I agree with everything, except one word "accurate". Most likely you and I define it differently.

I'm very familiar with the scientific process, and what constitutes a valid, repeatable, unbiased test. You seem to think it's very easy to come up with one. Ankerson's tests are great, but truly scientific, unbiased, and accurate they are not - if we are using the same logic you just displayed here.

It is not exactly correct. I never mentioned that it is easy in home environment to conduct valid test. IMHO it is near impossible, unless you have very serious financial capabilities.
It was good that you tried to perform tests. But I have two major issues. The first: results need to be measured, as accurate as possible and measurement error need to be evaluated. People, who read test results need to be aware of measurement uncertainty.
The second: results were misrepresented. You tested knives, you didn't test steels. If conclusion of your test would be:" I feel that knife#1 is holding the edge better than knife #2." I wouldn't have any issues with your statements.

About the ONLY truly accurate method we have using your logic is the CATRA, and that's a fundamentally flawed system as well if we are wanting to measure how a knife will perform in real life use.

Yes, IMHO CATRA testing, if it is done right will allow to compare steels in edge retention. Real life performance will depend a lot on user, his skills, mood in the day of test and so on. I strongly beleive that the knife with blade, made from steel, which demonstrated significantly better edge retention on SATRA, will have better edge retention in real life as well, given the same H/T.
I think it is very beneficial for knife community, when knife enthusiasts test knives. It can be very informative and more independent than testing published by foundries.

The only knives I'll be testing from here on out are my own, so it's really a moot point. I'm through with doing demos of any sort on any other knife than the one's I've made.

This is absolutely up to you. If you lost interest, there is no reason to continue. But even testing your own knives benefit, if you improve your methods.

[Sharpdressed man]

CrimsonTideShooter, I thank you for doing your in home blade edge tests. I am sorry you ran afoul of the fan boy factor. It is an ingenus demonstration of a blade performance that could predict how a given knife would perform in my hands.
As a consumer spending large amounts of money on a given knife I want to know that I am getting value in that product. For my uses I am buying a $200 to $500 glorified letter opener. However if there is a big disaster or global war (heaven forbid) I would like to have a knife that could make a 108 plus or minus a few cuts on mamilla rope with out significant loss of a sharp edge.
How can a total knife rookie like me compare these extremely complex elements that make up an expensive tool like a knife. The "forum experts" have a lot to say about the knifes they own and how long an edge has lasted with some super steel and not with another. Others are just repeating opinions they have heard.
Measurable features on knive blades that would predict edge retention seems to be HRC values. However even that seems to be unreliable according to some.
So what's a guy to do? Blade performance with cutting things and testing sharpness seems to be a real test to me. So CTS you have been a hero till you did the Sebenza S35VN test. All those CRK fan boys whose $500 plus knives did not do so well have launched a 5417 storm on you. I guess you could call it: "Bitter boys bad blade backlash." because their knife value has dropped.
In my opinion others should set up their cameras and cut up some rope and post that on you tube as a rebuttal rather than attacking your character. I find it ironic that one of the people bashing you Chuck_Roxas45 who I think is Singularity35 on another forum has this as his saying to go by: "People will always forgive you for being wrong - but they'll never forgive you for being right.". In fact Chuck that irony inspired me to post this message.

[Blerv]

I don't need a hero for the people when I trust a brand run by obsessive steel-heads. Sal and co are constantly looking for feedback from trusted custom makers, Internet knowledge-banks (Ankerson, Cliff, Joe, etc), and they aren't hiding behind hype and bombastic marketing videos. Probably because they are too busy working with shops to tighten tolerances and foundries to perfect their blade steels.

People asked what the 110v Native5 RC'ed at. Sal tested his at close to 63 iirc. Phil Wilson (look him up) said much past 61 would be a pipe dream for a manufacturer. If they can do that, I'm pretty sure s35vn is more often than not right on target.

That doesn't mean Crimson can't do his videos or yell his perspective from a soap box. The Internet is a free country. Freedom of speech, freedom to ignore.

[CrimsonTideShooter]

I don't need a hero for the people when I trust a brand run by obsessive steel-heads. Sal and co are constantly looking for feedback from trusted custom makers, Internet knowledge-banks (Ankerson, Cliff, Joe, etc), and they aren't hiding behind hype and bombastic marketing videos. Probably because they are too busy working with shops to tighten tolerances and foundries to perfect their blade steels.

People asked what the 110v Native5 RC'ed at. Sal tested his at close to 63 iirc. Phil Wilson (look him up) said much past 61 would be a pipe dream for a manufacturer. If they can do that, I'm pretty sure s35vn is more often than not right on target.

That doesn't mean Crimson can't do his videos or yell his perspective from a soap box. The Internet is a free country. Freedom of speech, freedom to ignore.

Since you mentioned those, whatever they are ran at is perfect. The one that I have been using has been almost perfect. Absolutely zero edge deformation of any kind. It can't shave anymore, but **** does it cut.