s35vn compared to s30v?

[TomAiello]

Does anyone know why Spyderco uses 35 for the Native5 and 30 for most of the other Golden production folders?

I picked up a Native5 a few months ago and I've been struck by how much longer it holds it's edge when cutting up boxes than my Manix 2 (s30v).

Is it just that the 35 is more expensive and would raise the cost of the larger folders too much?

[Holland]

In theory, s35vn > s30v
However, in practice (for me at least) s30v performed significantly better

[Cheddarnut]

S35VN costs 5+N more than S30V, so yes.

[michaelm466]

S35VN (3%) actually has less Vanadium than S30V (4%) which is at least one of the reason its easier to machine and finish, better edge holding is most likely due to edge geometry, the edge you happened to put on it and/or random variables.

[Blerv]

S35VN (3%) actually has less Vanadium than S30V (4%) which is at least one of the reason its easier to machine and finish, better edge holding is most likely due to edge geometry, the edge you happened to put on it and/or random variables.

^-- This.

If I recall it's a bit easier in theory to sharpen due, a little tougher, and cheaper to grind. It might be a bit less for edge retention but at the boon of being easier to work with for the customer.

[Cliff Stamp]

In theory, s35vn > s30v

Only for manufacturing though, not for the ELU.

[Evil D]

I'm a little shocked that anyone would consider S30V hard to work with or sharpen.

[Cheddarnut]

I'm a little shocked that anyone would consider S30V hard to work with or sharpen.

youve obviously never tried to reprofile a strider with medium stones David

[Evil D]

youve obviously never tried to reprofile a strider with medium stones David

Maybe that's the problem...I use the right tools for the job :D

[Cliff Stamp]

I'm a little shocked that anyone would consider S30V hard to work with or sharpen.

It is in a manufacturing setting / viewpoint. As the carbide load increases, especially the harder ones, not only does grinding time increase, over heating increases, abrasive cost is higher and the time to correct mistakes is amplified. This also all happens at the lowest level (the producer) and all costs there are magnified at each stage from producer to distributor to retailer. As well, even for custom makers the time is very critical because they can often be unable to meet demand thus even small changes such as 5-10% can make a difference when you are literally making 100+ knives. However you can never see this just sharpening / finishing a knife as the difference is too small.

[GTPowers]

Maybe that's the problem...I use the right tools for the job :D

My first PM2 and first S30V knife was actually on par with my first ZDP knife.
The PM2 came with a really poor grind and made for a frustrating reprofile. This is probably due more to my sharpening experience but it wasn't fun. A micro bevel and some stropping were key, for me at least.
-GT

[JNewell]

Only for manufacturing though, not for the ELU.

I don't pretend to be a steel expert, but that's my take. Looking at the Crucible sheets, edge retention is about the same; S35VN is a little tougher, for those who edge-pry :rolleyes: It's cheaper to finish for the manufacturer. I'm not sure I wouldn't slightly prefer the larger carbides in S30V.

[senorsquare]

I like both of them and would say they are both more than adequate for all but the most discerning steel aficionados.

[Per-Sev]

I think it depends on heat treatment, edge geometry, blade thickness, and how it sharpened. I have had both steels but not in identical knives. When S30V first came out I really wanted a blade made from that and I was a little dissapointed that it dulled sort of fast, then I had a custom knife made with S35VN and it had a thick edge and did not cut great so there a so many factors that you have to consider but if everything is done right then there both good steels, there really is no bad steel out there just bad heat treat and blade geometry can make or break any steel. From Spyderco I would buy either one the knife came with and I doubt I could tell much difference between the two, but made from other knife company's its anybody's guess.

[CrimsonTideShooter]

I don't pretend to be a steel expert, but that's my take. Looking at the Crucible sheets, edge retention is about the same; S35VN is a little tougher, for those who edge-pry :rolleyes: It's cheaper to finish for the manufacturer. I'm not sure I wouldn't slightly prefer the larger carbides in S30V.

Where exactly does Crucible show data for "edge retention?" :rolleyes:

Let's not pretend to be able to quantify steel performance by looking at marketing information.....because that's all it is.

[Blerv]

Where exactly does Crucible show data for "edge retention?" :rolleyes:

Let's not pretend to be able to quantify steel performance by looking at marketing information.....because that's all it is.

Sal has said in their testing the edge retention is a bit lower than CPM-S30v which makes sense with a little less carbon and somewhat less vanadium.

Crucible lists CATRA numbers (which may be idealistic per their application) as the exact same (ie machine-tested edge retention) with an increase of 15-20% in toughness.

http://www.crucible.com/PDFs%5CDataShee ... v12010.pdf

I don't think it's exactly the answer to world peace but certainly isn't awful.

[CrimsonTideShooter]

Sal has said in their testing the edge retention is a bit lower than CPM-S30v which makes sense with a little less carbon and somewhat less vanadium.

Crucible lists CATRA numbers (which may be idealistic per their application) as the exact same (ie machine-tested edge retention) with an increase of 15-20% in toughness.

http://www.crucible.com/PDFs%5CDataShee ... v12010.pdf

I don't think it's exactly the answer to world peace but certainly isn't awful.

I was only making the points that:

a.) Crucible's info is for marketing, so should be viewed as such,

b.) Crucible doesn't provide "edge retention" information. :)





Also, Crucible's CATRA info on S35VN isn't from actual testing - it's based on "market feedback" whatever that is.

[Cliff Stamp]

The toughness is not significantly different.

a) charpy impact numbers are not accurate to decimal points, the spread is far larger than that. It isn't possible to draw any conclusion from transverse impact readings of 12 vs 10 lbs as the reading on samples could scatter larger than that difference. Without the data showing the spread there is no way to form a conclusion.

b) The transverse toughness numbers are quoted by Crucible because they show a larger difference vs the other steels they compare against. This is the toughness where the load is applied to *split* the grain. Since the grain of a knife is ran from tip to tang this doesn't happen in use.

Again, as CTS noted, this is marketing data it should be held to the same standard as someone noting that a steel is good because it is "surgical" stainless.

[kbuzbee]

If I recall it's a bit easier in theory to sharpen due, a little tougher, and cheaper to grind. It might be a bit less for edge retention but at the boon of being easier to work with for the customer.

I've been very happy with the performance of my S35VN Native 5. Holds an edge just fine for my uses. Better IMO than VG10. Around (within my ability to discern) the same as S30V.

Ken

[Blerv]

I've been very happy with the performance of my S35VN Native 5. Holds an edge just fine for my uses. Better IMO than VG10. Around (within my ability to discern) the same as S30V.

Ken

Yea my brother bought a CR Insingo in S35vn and was concerned it wouldn't hold up well even to office tasks after all the bad press on the web. While we aren't notoriously rough on edges it's been just fine. While we admit that is completely anecdotal it's not far from some of the cutting tests condemning knife steels on Youtube.

Somewhere between the "best thing ever" and "the worst thing ever" usually there is a happy medium of reality. At least on a scale of averages.