Hard to Sharpen Blade Designs and Edge Types?

[JD Spydo]

One distinction that Spyderco has over many other commercial knife companies is that they have many blade styles that are not available through most other knife companies. For instance very few other commercial knife companies do anything like Hawkbills, recurves or even top notch serrations for that matter.

The Spyderco model C-111 Captain for instance is so unique that other than creative custom knife makers I don't know where you would get such an animal. And most knife companies steer away from high quality serrated edges that Spyderco does so well with.

What I want to know is how you all sharpen these highly unusual and unorthadox type blades and edge types. I have my own method I've devised on the Captain model as well as some of my other odd designed blades but I'm still trying to learn other ways of sharpening Hawkbills, recurves. and various serrated edges.

Some of Spyderco's recurve blades like the Kris, Spyker, Zulu and Adventura are truly tricky and demanding blades to get to get what I call "Straight Razor Sharp".

Now I'm not limiting this thread to Spyderco's unusual blades and unique edge types by any means. There are other blade styles and types out there that I also want to learn about as well.

Also you might want to fill us in on what tools you use to get your unusual and weird blade designs hair poppin sharp. I know that the 204 Sharpmaker can be used on many different blade styles with success but I'm convinced that there is more than one way to "Skin A Cat" so to speak and I'm eager to check out other methods and the tools used.

[kennethsime]

If someone can teach me how to successfully sharpen the Matriarch 2 I will be forever grateful, lol.

[JD Spydo]

If someone can teach me how to successfully sharpen the Matriarch 2 I will be forever grateful, lol.

What I've done with my Civilian SE when it needs touching up is to wrap it up with thick rubber on the handle and put it in a vice. Then I use my Spyderco 701 Profiles and use the radii parts of the 701 stones to do each individual scallop and spike on the serration pattern. The Matriarch has close to the same configuration as the Civilian model does.

Now the reverse S blade on the Matriarch is somewhat a bit more difficult to sharpen than most of the Hawkbill type blades. I like to sharpen all my fully serrated Spyderco blades with the 701 Profiles much better than I do with the 204 Sharpmaker.

[Invective]

I may get some flak for this, but for me, one of the hardest designs to sharpen well, at least on the Sharpmaker, are wharncliffes. I know what you're thinking, they're a straight blade how hard can it be??!! Well, for me, I always end up grinding the tip up a bit more than the rest of the blade. Even when I know I'm putting more pressure at the tip than the rest of the blade and try to compensate and lighten up, it still happens. Also, even if I'm not doing that, it is extremely hard on the Sharpmaker for me to put even pressure on the entire length of the blade. This has caused my Yo2 to lost it's perfectly straight edge and take on a subtle reverse-S shape, because the heel and tip have been lightly ground more than the rest of the blade. And on the perfectly straight blade of the Yo2, it is a lot more noticeable than on any other type of blade, where you have some wiggle room with the curvature of the blade.

With that said, there are a few other designs I have had trouble with. The Captain, as JD mentioned, can be a pain,but using the edges of the Sharpmaker rods has worked fine for me. After a thorough sharpening, I was able to cut the top off of used toilet paper roll that was just standing on the counter and nothing holding it down. The hard part for the Captain is getting the top part sharpened, just because it puts my hand at an awkward angle.

[NorthernPanda]

After a thorough sharpening, I was able to cut the top off of used toilet paper roll that was just standing on the counter and nothing holding it down. The hard part for the Captain is getting the top part sharpened, just because it puts my hand at an awkward angle.

I'm going to have to try that! I just cant wrap my head around having a knife sharp enough to blow thru a free standing toilet paper roll. :eek:

[JD Spydo]

With that said, there are a few other designs I have had trouble with. The Captain, as JD mentioned, can be a pain,but using the edges of the Sharpmaker rods has worked fine for me. After a thorough sharpening, I was able to cut the top off of used toilet paper roll that was just standing on the counter and nothing holding it down. The hard part for the Captain is getting the top part sharpened, just because it puts my hand at an awkward angle.

The C-111 Captain model as well as my dearly beloved Spyderco Hawkbills are 2 of the main reasons I started this thread. Because I got a feeling that there are several efficient ways of sharpening both the Captain model and I'm sure there are some superb tricks out there that up till now have not been shared with us pertaining to sharpening Hawkbill blades. I know that with those 2 types of blade styles there is without a doubt probably several ways to sharpen those types of blades.

Now when it comes to what I like to refer to as the "pendulum" part of the Captain model ( the front part of the blade) I mainly like to sharpen it with the 302 Spyderco Benchstones. I have gotten that "pendulum" part of the blade so sharp that it frankly scares me to a degree. The reason I call that part of the Captain's blade the "pendulum" because it eerily reminds me of that old Vincent Price movie entitled "The Pit And The Pendulum".

The inner arch part of the Captain model I either like to use a stationary 701 Profile stone or to use all 4 grits of stones on the 204 Sharpmaker. Needless to say it's one extremely scary blade when you get it "Straight Razor Sharp". I'm not exactly certain what Mr. Jason Breeden ( the Captain's designer) had in mind when he designed the Captain but I'm sure that knife is highly useful for many cutting chores not to mention being an extremely fierce and revered self defense blade.

Hawkbills are one of my favorite companion user blades that I use a lot for different cutting chores and I mainly use the Spyderedged Hawkbills far more than I do the plain edged versions. So the Spyderco 701 Profile kit is what I use about 85% of the time when sharpening my Hawkbill blades. But I'm hoping to find out more methods for getting Hawkbills sharp.

I'm in the stage of experimenting with my Goldenstone and Duckfoot for also sharpening Hawkbill blades.

[RanCoWeAla]

The title of this thread is exactly why I stay away from Wharbcliffes, recurves, hawkbills, serrated edges etc.

[RanCoWeAla]

I may get some flak for this, but for me, one of the hardest designs to sharpen well, at least on the Sharpmaker, are wharncliffes. I know what you're thinking, they're a straight blade how hard can it be??!! Well, for me, I always end up grinding the tip up a bit more than the rest of the blade. Even when I know I'm putting more pressure at the tip than the rest of the blade and try to compensate and lighten up, it still happens. Also, even if I'm not doing that, it is extremely hard on the Sharpmaker for me to put even pressure on the entire length of the blade. This has caused my Yo2 to lost it's perfectly straight edge and take on a subtle reverse-S shape, because the heel and tip have been lightly ground more than the rest of the blade. And on the perfectly straight blade of the Yo2, it is a lot more noticeable than on any other type of blade, where you have some wiggle room with the curvature of the blade.

With that said, there are a few other designs I have had trouble with. The Captain, as JD mentioned, can be a pain,but using the edges of the Sharpmaker rods has worked fine for me. After a thorough sharpening, I was able to cut the top off of used toilet paper roll that was just standing on the counter and nothing holding it down. The hard part for the Captain is getting the top part sharpened, just because it puts my hand at an awkward angle.

With the Wharncliffe Blade you have to sharpen from the tip back or you will ruin the tip every time. Where
you run off the tip with your sharpener you are applying extra pressure to the tip thus removing more steel.
I'm at one time or another you have seen an old worn out Stockman patern slip joint knife where the Sheepfoot Blade looked more like a Spey blade simply because the owner had sharpened it on stone from tang to tip instead of sharpening from the tip back where you run off the sharpener at the tip. A ll sharpeners will have the same effect on a Wharncliffe. If you start at the tang and run off the sharpener at the tip the tip will start to round off ruining the tip well as the looks of the knife. The Case Sway Back Jack used to be one of my favorite knives but because of the Wharncliffe Blade I have gotten away from it and that's why the Yojimbo isn't one of my favorite Spyderco's. You can't beat a clip, drop point or similiar blade design.

[ginsuwarrior]

What I've done with my Civilian SE when it needs touching up...

May I inquire into what you do with your Civilian such that it requires touching up...such a unique blade, how do you enjoy employing it?

[Donut]

If someone can teach me how to successfully sharpen the Matriarch 2 I will be forever grateful, lol.

I try to take the easy way. I've been using the sharpmaker and the 40 degree slots. I hold the knife with the blade straight up and down (normal) on the angled side. I go butt to tip, the normal way on the sharpmaker and I also use tip to butt... so that I try to get all parts of the edge. After that, I tip the blade on the flat side toward the stone as much as I can, and do a couple strokes to remove the burr. Then, I try to do alternating strokes on each side with the same angles I've been using.

[JD Spydo]

I try to take the easy way. I've been using the sharpmaker and the 40 degree slots. I hold the knife with the blade straight up and down (normal) on the angled side. I go butt to tip, the normal way on the sharpmaker and I also use tip to butt... so that I try to get all parts of the edge. After that, I tip the blade on the flat side toward the stone as much as I can, and do a couple strokes to remove the burr. Then, I try to do alternating strokes on each side with the same angles I've been using.

The 204 Sharpmaker will indeed get it nice and wickedly sharp I won't argue that for a second. But the problem I've had with the Sharpmaker doing Spyderedges or any other serration pattern is that it tends to round off and deform the serrations from their original factory condition. That's the main reason I prefer to take the extra time and use my 701 Profile set for that job. I don't sharpen any of my Spyderedged blades very often with the exception of 2 of my kitchen Spyderco models and my full SE Catcherman which I use the **** out of.

Like my Spyderhawk model SE H-1 for instance I'll wait till there is a good football game on or a great documentary I want to watch then I do it while I'm suffering through those agonizing TV commercials (especially GEICO & Progressive). I love the Spyderedges just the way they came from the factory and by using the Sharpmaker I did deform and round off the serrations on one of my Harpy models that I was using back around 2005 so ever since then I told my good Spyder Buddy Michael Cook about it after discovering how great the 701 Profiles are for the job and sent him a set of the Profiles and we both now agree that the 701 Profile set is truly the "Cat's Meow" when it come to sharpening and maintaining the Spyderedge like it was intended to be in the first place.

Now I do on occasion touch up my full SE Catcherman with the 204 Sharpmaker>> but do keep in mind that model has a type of low profile serration pattern of years gone by that they did some of their kitchen models on and you can get away with doing it on the 204 Sharpmaker when dealing with that type of pattern.

If I get a really banged up Spyderedge like I used to get when I had my original 440V USA made Native being used on a brutal job>> I then use some of my conical shaped DMT diamond rods to get the dings out before using the Profiles. I still haven't mastered the Goldenstone as of yet to do Spyderedges with but I slowly working on it. I'll always use the Profiles until my 5 sets are worn completely out and I got a feeling that's going to take a while. Because I'm no where near wearing out the first set yet.

I'm finding that sharpening the rounded pendulum end of my C-111 Captain model is best done on my set of Spyderco 302 Benchstones. It takes practice but when you get it down pat you will see what I mean.

[Jazz]

I can sharpen them, but I hate recurves. I prefer bench stones, not rods and such, so give me a normal blade any day. I've figured out serrations too, but give me a plain edge any day. I've found the Cricket, cool as it is, to be useful for one thing - clam packs.

[jackknifeh]

I may get some flak for this, but for me, one of the hardest designs to sharpen well, at least on the Sharpmaker, are wharncliffes.

There is only one method for sharpening wharncliff blades IMO. The edge is straight so it automatically demands just a flat bench stone. Mark the edge with a sharpie then lay the edge on the stone and stroke. When you are removing marker (steel actually) from the entire length of the edge your results will be good. I bet when you start there will be a slight belly right at the tip. I HATE THIS. The edge is supposed to be straight. So just keep stroking and removing steel from the edge until the entire edge is on the stone. The stone should be at least as wide as the blade is long. The Wharncliff is probably the only edge type that the oldest, most proven method of sharpening (bench stones) is the absolute best. Just my opinion.

[Invective]

There is only one method for sharpening wharncliff blades IMO. The edge is straight so it automatically demands just a flat bench stone. Mark the edge with a sharpie then lay the edge on the stone and stroke. When you are removing marker (steel actually) from the entire length of the edge your results will be good. I bet when you start there will be a slight belly right at the tip. I HATE THIS. The edge is supposed to be straight. So just keep stroking and removing steel from the edge until the entire edge is on the stone. The stone should be at least as wide as the blade is long. The Wharncliff is probably the only edge type that the oldest, most proven method of sharpening (bench stones) is the absolute best. Just my opinion.

Yeah, I figured that would be the best option. Just not the cheapest unfortunately. Although I guess this gives me a reason to step into the world of benchstones :D

[RanCoWeAla]

When sharpening a Wharncliffe on a stone though you have to use push strokes. Set the tip on the stone and push away from you. If you hold the stone in your hand or lay it on a table and pull the knife toward you and let the tip run off the edge you will still ruin it

[RanCoWeAla]

Actually you could use most anything to sharpen a Wharncliffe Blade just so long as you start at the tip and push away and not pull toward you where the tip runs off the sharpener. I use one of the little Smith's pull through sharpeners on my keychain to touch mine up all the time. Just lay the tip or an area right at the tip on the crossed ceramic rods and push into it instead of pulling and letting the tip run off because that's where the problems start. I also use a Warthog and start at the tip push inward and down.

[JD Spydo]

Personally I've never had any trouble sharpening Wharncliffe type blades. The older original Yojimbo I used to have was truly easy to sharpen IMO. I do tend to like a 302 Benchstone rather than the Sharpmaker for those because you can encounter a problem rounding off the pointed tip if you're not careful.

One thing you want to keep in mind is to not let the tip off the stone for any reason because every time you do it tends to either round off or deform the tip to where it is useless. I learned that the hard way on an older blade once.

Just keep a consistent angle and try to keep most of the blade on the stone when sharpening and I'm sure you'll get good results if you're patient. After reading Michael Janich's article in a past issue of Tactical Knives magazine I'm sold on Wharncliffe blades for SD.

[DRKBC]

chisel grind has been a challenge for me. Freehand on a rod seems to work the best for me I can't get results with the sharpmaker for this grind for the life of me but freehand does seem to work.

[JD Spydo]

chisel grind has been a challenge for me. Freehand on a rod seems to work the best for me I can't get results with the sharpmaker for this grind for the life of me but freehand does seem to work.

Yeah that's a tough one for me too. But actually the "chisel grind" is one edge type that I've personally never seen much advantage in. They are appealing to the eyes just like Tanto blades are but I've yet to find many if any cutting chores where they have an advantage. Now I've been told to get an optimal edge on a chisel grind that you want to only sharpen it on one side only. I had a chisel grind fixed blade once upon a time but it's collector value got so good that I traded it before ever even considering using it. It was a Timberline Specwar. A very handsome piece to look at but I've yet to figue what that type of edge could excel at?

Also about the only Tanto that I've ever been really sold on is Spyderco's C-46 Lum tanto folder. The tip part of the blade has a "hamaguri"/convex edge and it is designed to actually use for a wide range of cutting chores. I most generally use my set of Spyderco 302 Benchstones on the C-46 Lum model.

But as far as a chisel grind goes I've never ever seen anyone even sharpen one of those on a 204 Sharpmaker before.

Also I consider the Spyderco Dodo model one of the most challenging blades to sharpen. The best sharpening tool I've found for the Dodo is one of the "Cat's Eye" stones from Spyderco's older/discontinued "Galley V" Sharpening kit. That stone just seems to be made for odd shaped blades and particularly "reverse S" blades.

[jackknifeh]

chisel grind has been a challenge for me. Freehand on a rod seems to work the best for me I can't get results with the sharpmaker for this grind for the life of me but freehand does seem to work.

Yeah that's a tough one for me too. But actually the "chisel grind" is one edge type that I've personally never seen much advantage in. They are appealing to the eyes just like Tanto blades are but I've yet to find many if any cutting chores where they have an advantage. Now I've been told to get an optimal edge on a chisel grind that you want to only sharpen it on one side only. I had a chisel grind fixed blade once upon a time but it's collector value got so good that I traded it before ever even considering using it. It was a Timberline Specwar. A very handsome piece to look at but I've yet to figue what that type of edge could excel at?

Also about the only Tanto that I've ever been really sold on is Spyderco's C-46 Lum tanto folder. The tip part of the blade has a "hamaguri"/convex edge and it is designed to actually use for a wide range of cutting chores. I most generally use my set of Spyderco 302 Benchstones on the C-46 Lum model.

But as far as a chisel grind goes I've never ever seen anyone even sharpen one of those on a 204 Sharpmaker before.

Also I consider the Spyderco Dodo model one of the most challenging blades to sharpen. The best sharpening tool I've found for the Dodo is one of the "Cat's Eye" stones from Spyderco's older/discontinued "Galley V" Sharpening kit. That stone just seems to be made for odd shaped blades and particularly "reverse S" blades.

Spydo, I agree with you in that a chisel grind should only be sharpened on one side. Just like a chisel. Using the sharpmaker I think you should only stroke on one stone using light strokes then remove any burr you create on the other side. Do this with the flat side of the other stone but don't hold the blade vertical. Lay the blade flat on the stone so there will NOT be ANY edge bevel on that side. Just the flat blade until it reaches the edge. Now on the chisel side there can be an edge bevel I suppose OR you can just lay the blade grind flat on the stone so the final edge is like a chisel which shouldn't have edge bevels in addition to the blade grind a chisel comes with. Although I have been guilty of putting an edge bevel on the bevel side of a chisel, the goal being to strengthen the edge. But the other side always stays flat. This is just my opion and like you Spydo I don't see the advantage of this type edge on an EDC pocket knife. I would like this edge on a knife for trimming material while slicing along a metal ruler. The flat side could ride along the ruler so the cut is RIGHT ALONG the straight edge. A normal V edge would want to cut the material a bit farther away from the ruler and you need to allow for that if the cut needs to be perfect. Just my opinion and this is one subject that no opinion is right IMO. Just an opinion. :)

Jack