Spyderco ZDP-189 has me stumped

[jackknifeh]

I got the ZDP Manbug about a month ago. This is the first ZDP I have bought in about 2 years. The edge on this blade is doing so great I can't believe it. I've used the blue Stretch, Delica4 and Michael Walker all with ZDP. The micro chipping I experienced was very discouraging. I had to keep the edge angle at 36 to 40 degrees inclusive to get performance I was happy with. I put a 36 degree angle on the Manbug when I got it. I've used it and cut cardboard, small limbs, etc. just for "testing" and the steel hasn't had one micro-chip. Also, the edge retention has been even better than any other ZDP I've seen. So I lowered the edge angle to 30 degrees and have still had 100% great performance. I see no need to go lower on the angle but I may sometime just to see how it does.

Does anyone have any idea why I thought the performance on my other knives was worse than this one? My experience is very limited. I thought it could be the edge angles but I tried angles between 28 and 40 degrees on the other knives so I don't think that is an issue. If the problem isn't me I start thinking about heat treat. Has anyone noticed ZDP purchased recently performing better than about 3 years ago? I'm really at a loss. One thing I know for sure is I am very happy with my ZDP Manbug.

Jack

[Donut]

Would you consider the Manbug "thicker behind the edge"?

[Blerv]

Half of me wants to say a variance of heat treats over a span of years giving some slightly tougher knives than others. The other side think it's something of luck as most materials (like cardboard) are hardly a consistent medium. Maybe the smaller handle has you applying less torque to the edge. I'm not really sure. :confused:

I have a reground Stretch ZDP-189 that is quite thin at the secondary bevel (almost a zero grind). It's seen about half a dozen office style zip ties with not a single visible chip. I can't say it took much pressure either to pop the tie in half which is perhaps the secret. Sharpness, low pressure, consistent materials, quality HT, luck, etc.

[jackknifeh]

Would you consider the Manbug "thicker behind the edge"?

I don't know. My Stretch was pretty thin. I don't have the other knives to compare. I doubt if that is an issue though because the difference I am seeing is right on the edge. Micro chips and less edge retention were the problems on the other knives. The Manbug blade is far far better. That's not to say the other knife blades performed badly, just not as well as the Manbug blade. At the moment the knife has a single bevel of 30 deg. with no micro bevel. My "testing" isn't very accurate because the opinion I have is as much from EDC than it is from cutting cardboard or anything just to test edge retention, etc. Like Blerv said, even the cardboard I have now may be different than I had before.

I really doubt if anyone will actually know why this blade performs better (IMO) unless they are with Spyderco and know about some change in the creation of the steel during manufacturing or HT. I have the ZDP blade on my G-10 handle and truely love the little knife.

Jack

[Nobody]

I've got a few different zdp models, all spydies, and so do others in my family. All of us have had nothing short of mythically great performance from them.

[chuck_roxas45]

ZDP has been a good performer for me but I'm still not a fan because of the high wear resistance that translates to more strokes. Super Blue for me holds it edge about as long as ZDP and is just a breeze to sharpen.

[Blerv]

M4 for me has been a breeze too. Manix2 lightweight sprint plz! :)

[chuck_roxas45]

M4 for me has been a breeze too. Manix2 lightweight sprint plz! :)

Oh yeh M4, especially when reprofiled already, really takes a wonderful edge on when sharpened with a microbevel.

[jackknifeh]

You guys are saying the same things about ZDP-189 that has always been said. What you are saying can be said about the performance I'm getting from my new Manbug. I'm going to chalk up my lower opinion of it in the past to lack of experience and forget about it. One thing that hasn't changed (yet :) ) is frequent touch-ups are advisable. Last night my edge would remove arm hair after 2 or 3 strokes. A couple of minutes on the UF ceramic stone and 3 micron strop and it was back to one-pass shaving. Other steels could have been touched up with a strop but the ZDP needed a stone first due to it's hardness I think.

Jack

[Blerv]

Yea I'm not sure Jack. Glad this time around its treating you better :) .

I generally treat ZDP very gentle and am constantly touching it up on fine stones just to maximize sharpness. You folks likely have sharper blades due to better equipment and mad skills ( :D ) but I find it helps. The zip ties have been the most abuse and I've had luck probably more than anything.

[arty]

I used the Michael Walker to cut a lot of rope after a move, and it has not seen a stone. I strop first with a 1200 grit compound, followed by a strop loaded with 1 micron paste.
The strops are a good substitute for the ultra fine stone, which doesn't see much use.

[jackknifeh]

I used the Michael Walker to cut a lot of rope after a move, and it has not seen a stone. I strop first with a 1200 grit compound, followed by a strop loaded with 1 micron paste.
The strops are a good substitute for the ultra fine stone, which doesn't see much use.

Strops seem to be a good substitute when light touchups are needed. I have diamond paste as coarse as 28 micron that I strop with. 28 and 15 micron pastes will do a great job of finishing an edge and polishing the bevels after finer stones. Then, finishing with 3 or 1 micron DMT paste is nice but the 15 micron actually leaves a very respectable edge. With these diamond pastes the UF stone can be skipped as you said. It's amazing how many sharpening tools we can accumulate that see little or no use as our collection grows. :) I have considered selling some of my less used sharpening tools but the UF Spyderco 8" stone will not see another owner until it goes to my son. I have wondered which tools I could live with as a minimal sharpening set. For now I'm not letting go of anything I have. Then again, I don't have near the collection of sharpening tools some guys here have. And I've seen pictures. :D

Jack

[WMR]

I have become a bit disillusioned with ZDP-189 for everyday use. In ZDP-189, I have a Ladybug, 2 Michael Walkers, 2 Dragonflys (one in continual daily use), a Delica, a Stretch. Also, I have a Mule Team in use along with two other Mules in the kitchen. The other 2 Mules are CPM S90V and ELMAX. The Mules are kept in the same containerr at all times but the ZDP gets the most use, probably because my wife prefers the Amboyna wood scales on that one. The problem is that to keep the ZDP in use as sharp as I like, I have to drag out the DMT diamond sharpeners as I don't do daily touch up. Also, the kitchen ZDP-189 Mule has developed some corrosion pitting along the cutting edge. I have no idea what she may have left it sitting in but the pitting is there. (I know you want pictures but I don't have a camera handy, sorry.)

VG-10 has really become my every day steel of choice so much that I no longer want a Caly 3.5 in ZDP-189. My EDC is a Caly 3.5 (VG-10) which is always sharper than the ZDP-189s I have around here. Light stropping is all the VG=10 seems to need. My usual stropping may not be typical as I use a leather strop from Cape Forge with a 600 grit Silicon Carbide stropping compound applied.

As to Jack's original concern, I don't use any of the ZDPs in an equal manner so it is not possible to say one is preforming any differently than the other. They are just all a bit more troublesome to sharpen (in addition to being more expensive.) Jack says his "experience is very limited" but I see him as a sharpening guru, while I am an every day knife user who sharpens only when he has to. My Manbug arrived today. I got one in VG-10 and so far, it is one sharp little razor.

[Evil D]

I would blame this on something you've done in the past when sharpening that caused the chipping, that you've overcome now and so you're not seeing the chipping. Can you be absolutely sure you never left a burr on your older ZDP blades? Burr + ZDP = chips every time. It could also be like Blerv said and you're just not manhandling this knife because of the smaller size? I can't say i've ever noticed chipping on my ZDP Ladybug either, and i've only ever sharpened it to 30 degrees inclusive and i never micro bevel it because i usually delegate it to lighter/detailed use so i want the edge to be a scalpel. My advice would be to go back to your arch nemesis the Michael Walker, sharpen it the exact same way you did the Manbug, and then use it the same way and see if it chips. If it does, then i'd say it's luck with heat treat or perhaps even bad luck with the MW's heat treat. It could be a slew of things really.

Oh, and i'll agree with not using this steel for EDC use, at least not for the kind of use i put a knife through. The simple fact that it takes so much work to hone out chips has been enough to turn me off on this steel for EDC use. Now, that's not to say i won't buy and use this steel in the future, because it's a badass steel, i just tend to use my knife harder than i think ZDP likes to be used, and i'm too much of a perfectionist to deal with those chips all the time.

[Donut]

Jack, most of the models you've listed are very thin behind the edge. The reason I asked if the Manbug was thicker behind the edge is because if you have twice as much steel behind the edge, it will definitely take more abuse. It's like beating on something with a 2x4, then beating on something with a 4x4... the 4x4 is going to deliver a lot more of a beating before falling apart (ideally).

[Evil D]

Jack, most of the models you've listed are very thin behind the edge. The reason I asked if the Manbug was thicker behind the edge is because if you have twice as much steel behind the edge, it will definitely take more abuse. It's like beating on something with a 2x4, then beating on something with a 4x4... the 4x4 is going to deliver a lot more of a beating before falling apart (ideally).

That wouldn't really make a difference if the bevels are sharpened to the same degree? 30 inclusive is 30 inclusive no matter how thick it is behind the bevel, right?

[phillipsted]

Yea I'm not sure Jack. Glad this time around its treating you better :) .

I generally treat ZDP very gentle and am constantly touching it up on fine stones just to maximize sharpness. You folks likely have sharper blades due to better equipment and mad skills ( :D ) but I find it helps. The zip ties have been the most abuse and I've had luck probably more than anything.

I concur with you, Blerv. I normally treat my ZDP gently and profile the edges at low angles -I get extraordinary performance out of them with regular touch ups. But ZDP is not my steel of choice for a camping trip, maintenance chores around the house, or yardwork...

TedP

[JAfromMN]

I got a fully serrated Endura in zdp189 I cut anything and everything with. It's takes a lighter touch with more strokes but it holds a sharp edge all day and keep's cutting.

It's a beast,it's held up great after lots of hard use and some abuse.

I keep Light oil on the blade and touch up my edge as needed.

I should have bought two :D

[Cliff Stamp]

That wouldn't really make a difference if the bevels are sharpened to the same degree? 30 inclusive is 30 inclusive no matter how thick it is behind the bevel, right?

Unless the damage is exceeding the entire bevel. Curiously enough, the thicker bevels don't actually make the edge more durable, again unless the damage is exceeding the edge bevel completely, they make the edge more fragile. This effect, while counter intuitive, happens because the thicker edges cause more force and less control during cutting.

[Evil D]

Unless the damage is exceeding the entire bevel. Curiously enough, the thicker bevels don't actually make the edge more durable, again unless the damage is exceeding the edge bevel completely, they make the edge more fragile. This effect, while counter intuitive, happens because the thicker edges cause more force and less control during cutting.

Right...my point was just that i don't think any of the knives listed (or really any that Spyderco sells for that matter) are so thin behind the edge that the damage is happening beyond the bevel and into the grind of the blade itself.