To Microbevel, or NOT to Microbevel... That is the question!

[Sharpmaker Mike]

Hi guys,

I know there are a lot of guys here who are edge fanatics, and after seeing some of the work in the "Show your edge" thread I KNOW this is the forum to ask this question.

I was wondering if microbeveling an edge is more of a preference or more of a neccesity, depending on the material you are sharpening or the knife's intended use?

Can any of you edge experts chime in on why you microbevel, or maybe why you only do it on certain knives?

Thanks!

[.357 mag]

I microbevel. Its easier to maintain and holds an edge longer. I generally bevel at 15 degrees off the Edgepro and freehand a 20 degree mircobevel.

[Evil D]

I only do for some steels. Ironically enough i tend to use them on the higher end steels that hold an edge longer, which is probably the opposite of what you'll get from most people. The reason i do is because those steels also tend to be really hard and chip prone, so i use the micro bevel to combat chipping. When i sharpen S30V, i will raise the angle maybe 1 degree and polish the very edge with my 3000 grit tapes on my Edge Pro, but i consider that almost more like stropping than a micro bevel. It leaves you with a ridiculously sticky sharp edge.

[phillipsted]

I microbevel a few of my knives - especially the ones which see a lot of use. I've found that I like to put a microbevel on S30V because it keeps the edge from deforming so quickly when you have a low primary bevel. I take this strategy on a couple of my regular Para2s.

TedP

[Sharpmaker Mike]

Thanks so much for the info so far guys. I really appreciate it.

It sounds like those that do microbevel are doing it at a much lower angle than I thought. I was thinking of microbeveling at 30 degrees with a 40 degree primary bevel on an S30V blade, but it looks like I *might* not need to microbevel at all at that angle.

Is that correct?

[.357 mag]

Sounds like you need to turn it around. 30 degree primary bevel, 40 degree microbevel.

[Sharpmaker Mike]

Sounds like you need to turn it around. 30 degree primary bevel, 40 degree microbevel.

That's what I meant. My Dyslexia just shows up a little more on Mondays. LOL!!!!

[jzmtl]

Another important reason to microbevel is ease of sharpening. Most of the time I sharpen knives with good steel to 20° inclusive, this gives me a secondary bevel 3 or 4 mm wide. If I were to sharpening at this angle every time, I'd have to remove steel from this entire surface, then repolish it. however if I were to add a 30° microbevel, then literally 10 or so swipes on sharpmaker is enough to make it shaving sharp again, that's a LOT less work.

[dbcad]

A micro bevel will increase cross sectional area and to some degree will make a stronger edge at the very edge :) Some knives I prefer not to microbevel. I prefer the bushcraft Scandi grind and keep the Superleaf without one because the edges are very sharp now and I've experienced no problems.

It's really a matter of personal preference and the use your blades will see :) A microbevel does offer advantages of a stronger edge with a proportional minimum of performance degradation. Whatever you feel works right for you is most likely good :)

[Cliff Stamp]

Rather than think of it as adding a micro-bevel to the very edge to steepen it, ask yourself this question : does the steel right behind the edge apex need to be at the same angle of the very edge?

If you look at it from this perspective then it should be obvious that once you have established the angle that the edge needs to be to get the necessary durability then metal can be cut back from behind that edge to :

-improve cutting ability (and strengthen the edge more)

-drastically increase ease of sharpening as jmztl noted

[jackknifeh]

Rather than think of it as adding a micro-bevel to the very edge to steepen it, ask yourself this question : does the steel right behind the edge apex need to be at the same angle of the very edge?

If you look at it from this perspective then it should be obvious that once you have established the angle that the edge needs to be to get the necessary durability then metal can be cut back from behind that edge to :

-improve cutting ability (and strengthen the edge more)

-drastically increase ease of sharpening as jmztl noted

This is interesting. I never keep the edge using only one bevel angle of 40 deg inclusive because of my cutting needs. Normally I put a back bevel of 24-30 deg inclusive then decide if I want a micro-bevel. I ALWAYS put a micro-bevel of 38-40 deg on ZDP-189 because anything under 30 deg tends to develope tiny chips right on the edge because the steel is so hard. Since that is the reason I micro bevel ZDP I can use Cliff's thinking of sharpening the edge to razor edge then deciding what angle to use on my back bevel. Actually I don't use a "micro-bevel" on ZDP. Spyderco's terminology is back bevel and edge bevel. On ZDP I call it an edge bevel because it is wide enough to bee seen easily with the naked eye. I call the edge bevel a micro bevel when I have only used a very small number of strokes to create it and get a razor edge. Then as I touch up the edge I use the micro bevel angle. After many touch ups the micro bevel will be wide enough for me to start calling it an edge bevel. Anyway, I use an edge bevel with ZDP because the edge behind the micro bevel (edge bevel) needs to be thicker if it is to provide any strenth against chipping. So my edge on ZDP has two wide, easily seen angles instead of what looks like one edge bevel unless you look closely, possibly using a loupe to see the micro bevel.


Jack

[Evil D]

My problem with the whole back bevel edge bevel thing is, once you get to the point where your edge bevel is taking over as the back bevel, you have to reprofile the **** out of it to get it thinned out again. I don't have that much difficulty sharpening a 30 degree bevel right at 30 degrees, and it doesn't seem to remove as much metal to me as having to take down that back bevel again. Maybe i'm looking at it from the wrong perspective? I know that when working with a really low/wide bevel, it can be a pain to hit the edge, so in that case i'll work with a micro bevel, but then my preferred bevel angle is right about 30 degrees so that's usually not an issue. Even my 20 inclusive ZDP Delica isn't THAT hard to sharpen without using a micro bevel. I've just become addicted to how acute a nice 30 degree edge is without the micro bevel. Chipping be damned!

[jackknifeh]

My problem with the whole back bevel edge bevel thing is, once you get to the point where your edge bevel is taking over as the back bevel, you have to reprofile the **** out of it to get it thinned out again. I don't have that much difficulty sharpening a 30 degree bevel right at 30 degrees, and it doesn't seem to remove as much metal to me as having to take down that back bevel again. Maybe i'm looking at it from the wrong perspective? I know that when working with a really low/wide bevel, it can be a pain to hit the edge, so in that case i'll work with a micro bevel, but then my preferred bevel angle is right about 30 degrees so that's usually not an issue. Even my 20 inclusive ZDP Delica isn't THAT hard to sharpen without using a micro bevel. I've just become addicted to how acute a nice 30 degree edge is without the micro bevel. Chipping be damned!

The back bevel does need to be reprofiled after a while. I use an Edge Pro for this kind of stuff but for frequent touch ups I like Spyderco's fine or UF 8" ceramic stone. Sometimes only a strop is necessary I touch up frequently (every day or two). This way I remove such a small amount of steel that reprofiling the back bevel is very far into the future. I like to touch up using the micro bevel method because if you touch up hitting the entire single bevel it seems steel is being removed from the top of the bevel that doesn't need to be removed right away. Only when it is time to lower the back bevel after many touch up. This is how it seems to me but I haven't had enough real experience to think I'm 100% right about any sharpening issue. 99% correct at best. :)

In the past two years I have sold all my ZDP knives. My knives with ZDP were ones I just didn't carry much. I just ordered a ZDP Manbug and am eagerly waiting for it. :) This knife will get lots of pocket time and use. I may swap the blades with my G-10 Manbug but I don't know how easy it is to get a blade back into a FRN hangle that is one piece. Anyway, I'll be paying close attention to it's edge as far as chipping and edge angles to prevent as much as possible. Most of the chipping I've had didn't really hurt the knife's cutting performance. Just bugged me, that's all.


Jack

[Cliff Stamp]

My problem with the whole back bevel edge bevel thing is, once you get to the point where your edge bevel is taking over as the back bevel, you have to reprofile the **** out of it to get it thinned out again.

If you are using a compound bevel you only need the finishing grit on the apex, the primary can be left with the shaping grit so it is very fast to work. I normally use a cheap benchstone with swarf from a small piece of a left over 200 grit SiC block applied. I use the cheap benchstones as I get them as gifts, if you are buying one just get a 24-60 grit waterstone, just don't let the scratches hit the very apex and only use it when you can actually see the micro-bevel.

Ideally though the main grind of the knife should be such that the edge profile itself it minimal, but that takes power equipment generally unless you have a lot of patience.

[Sharpmaker Mike]

Has anybody ever tried a microbevel with a Sharpmaker, or are the 40 and 30 degree angles too far off?

[Evil D]

Has anybody ever tried a microbevel with a Sharpmaker, or are the 40 and 30 degree angles too far off?

When your bevel is at 30 degrees and you hit light strokes on the 40 degree setting, that's your micro bevel or "edge bevel" as Spyderco refers to it.

[Koen Z]

I use the 'Microbevel' the same way as Cliff does.

My 'back bevel' is about 10 degrees, made with extra course DMT. About 5 minutes work on a stock Para2. I then polished it to 1000 grit. My 'edge bevel' is about 25 degrees. The edge is strong enough for my use, and sharpening is a lot quicker. The knife also cuts a lot better.

[Sharpmaker Mike]

When your bevel is at 30 degrees and you hit light strokes on the 40 degree setting, that's your micro bevel or "edge bevel" as Spyderco refers to it.

I was just wondering if anyone has actually done that with a Sharpmaker (and what they thought of it), or if they just settle on the 40 (or even 30 degree) setting?

Also, I think I realized why I was so confused. With the Sharpmaker, the 40 degree setting is the "Flatter" of the two, since the you are coming down from the top, instead of across from the side. With the Sharpmaker I would use the 40 degree "Setting" as the main, and the 30 degree setting as the micro or edge bevel.

I know the angles are greater than most use, but I was thinking that since the difference in the two was only 10 degrees, that doing a micro or edge bevel on the Sharpmaker could be done. I just wanted to see if others had actually done it.

Thanks for the great input so far!!!

[Evil D]

I was just wondering if anyone has actually done that with a Sharpmaker (and what they thought of it), or if they just settle on the 40 (or even 30 degree) setting?

Also, I think I realized why I was so confused. With the Sharpmaker, the 40 degree setting is the "Flatter" of the two, since the you are coming down from the top, instead of across from the side. With the Sharpmaker I would use the 40 degree "Setting" as the main, and the 30 degree setting as the micro or edge bevel.

I know the angles are greater than most use, but I was thinking that since the difference in the two was only 10 degrees, that doing a micro or edge bevel on the Sharpmaker could be done. I just wanted to see if others had actually done it.

Thanks for the great input so far!!!

You have the two confused. It's impossible to use the 30 as the micro bevel and the 40 as the primary bevel, because the "primary bevel" is going to be the "back bevel" or the biggest portion of the bevel you see, while the micro/edge bevel is going to be the smaller, almost invisible bevel at the very edge. You can't have the micro/edge bevel lower than the back bevel...that's impossible. So, 30 will be for the back bevel, and 40 will be for the edge bevel. I would say many people get lazy and stick with 40 unless they take the time to keep the back bevel thinned out to 30. The main purpose of a back bevel is to 1) create a small transition from edge bevel to the main grind of the blade, and 2) to make the knife thinner just behind the very edge, which can make sharpening easier because you hit less steel with each stroke.

[Sharpmaker Mike]

Wow, it looks like Tuesday is just as rough for me as Monday was LOL!

For some reason I always thought the steeper of the two settings was 40 degree, like it was measured off the side. I also got my terminology mixed up thinking the back bevel was the term for the last bevel (micro/edge) bevel you made, almost like you did one bevel and then went "Back" over it or something.

Now that I have my head out of a very dark place, the posts now make a lot more sense.

Another thing I discovered is that the 40 degrees is really 20 on each side, so there would only be a 5 degree difference (per side) from the primary to the micro/edge bevel.

With that said, it looks like the 2 settings of the Sharpmaker might be perfect for doing a micro/edge bevel, so I will just need to give it a try.

I did find a tip online that said to make sure you use the different grits to do the micro bevel as if you just skip straight to the the UF stones, you'll just be flipping the bur back and forth.