ZDP-189 Opinions?

[Donut]

I've been reading many threads about many steels, and it seems like people avoid talking about ZDP-189. Some of the very popular people have said it is a mediocre steel and called it a day.

Sal says that some people consider it to perform like S90V. I've been paying attention, but I haven't seen anyone who says this.

I would like to gather some opinions on the steel, strengths, weaknesses, what can be done to make it better.

I find it to be a pretty nice steel. It isn't the best on the block, but it is well rounded and fairly stain resistant and it resists scratches. It makes a very good user steel for me. It does lose the fine edge fairly fast.

At the very least, I think it is great to have a third steel option (other than VG-10 and H1) for Japan's knives.

I would really appreciate it if Cliff Stamp and Mastiff can comment on this steel.

[SolidState]

I'm not a steel nut by any stretch, but I enjoy ZDP. It takes a 30 degree edge and holds it for a long time, but that said, I've had problems with my edges microchipping when used. My edges tend to chip and not roll, making a pseudo-serrated edge after a few days without a touch-up.

[chuck_roxas45]

[kbuzbee]

At the very least, I think it is great to have a third steel option (other than VG-10 and H1) for Japan's knives.

I would really appreciate it if Cliff Stamp and Mastiff can comment on this steel.

Well, I'm not Cliff or Joe but.... I find ZDP "okay" It won't keep me from buying a knife but it doesn't make it a 'have to buy' either. Honestly, I get an edge I like better from VG10.

As to "third steel option" Don't forget Super Blue. My absolute favorite of the Japanese offerings and second (maybe) only to CPM-M4.

Ken

[The Deacon]

Have never used S90V, so I can't comment on how it compares to ZDP-189. The steels I have the most experience with are VG-10 and ZDP-189, simply because almost all the knives I've carried and used for the past five years happen to use one, the other, or both. I've also gotten to compare them in the same platform, the Stretch. My experience with ZDP-189 is that it holds an edge quite a bit longer than VG-10, but takes more time and finesse to sharpen. I've also found it to rust more easily than VG-10 and, of course, it costs more. I've never had to stop what I was doing to re-sharpen a recently sharpened VG-10 blade that had dulled while I was using it so, for me, the negatives of ZDP-189 outweigh the positives.

[Blerv]

Back in 2002 it offered almost unheard of performance for a stainless steel. Today it's still no slouch but perhaps has lost some of the magic.

I don't have much experience chipping blades but ZDP-189 has yet to do me wrong. When you can buy a FFG Ladybug with the steel for the price of a family pizza dinner it's hard to cry foul too loudly. :)

[Zenith]

Back in 2002 it offered almost unheard of performance for a stainless steel. Today it's still no slouch but perhaps has lost some of the magic.

Boy does that not happen to every steel these days. :) ZDP is a fine steel IMO, just like 440C, 1095 all of them. They have just been overshadowed with demand for "newer and better" what ever that "newer and better" might be in peoples opinion.

[SolidState]

When you can buy a FFG Ladybug with the steel for the price of a family pizza dinner it's hard to cry foul too loudly. :)

The zdp ladybug is my favorite knife to gift because it holds a dull sharp better than anything, and is so respectable.

[yobohadi]

If you don't baby the blades then the real difference is with you. If you are anal about your edge and can't handle chips you will probably be more happier with VG-10.

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

I like ZDP...it does take a slightly finer touch to sharpen, but I like the edge and the time it holds it. I tend to use it a little bit more carefully just because of it's high hardness though.

[Donut]

Thanks a lot, everyone.

Now I'm wondering, does ZDP perform better when cutting specific things and do worse when cutting others.

Maybe the coarse edge versus fine edge will play a role in how well it performs for the user.

At the very least, it is an odd chemistry compared to what we know and love.

[chuck_roxas45]

You have a good point there Donut. ZDP at an acute angle is really hard to beat for cutting softer materials.

[Blerv]

Roughly paraphrasing Phil Wilson all steels have a certain elastic range. Once surpassed they will either chip or roll.

With harder steels the propensity is to chip. Softer ones it is to roll. I've chipped VG10 before so anything is possible. I've also put ZDP-189 to zip ties. If you let the sharpness do the cutting (instead of the pressure) or even light sawing the chance for either to happen goes down significantly.

What a stronger/harder (not tough) steel has over something like AUS8 is the ability to hold a thin edge and not deform. ZDP-189 is clearly not a tough steel but it will hold acute angles like a pro compared to some which is one of the keys of a sharp blade.

[Spider bite]

My S30V blades have chipped more then my ZDP'S.

[Evil D]

Great steel IMO. It'll chip fast if you run a super thin edge, but micro bevels can prevent most of this. It's a very hard steel so with that comes chips, it just comes with the territory. Remember, a chipped edge still cuts, a rolled edge is barely good for spreading butter on your toast. It takes more time to sharpen, but you get that back in working edge retention. Decide how often you want to sharpen your knife, and how dull you're willing to let it get before you feel the need to sharpen it again.

I've come to realize that since i don't mind sharpening everyday, i really don't need crazy high end steels, but i still need a steel that has a decently long working edge. I've found that S30V is a pretty good compromise. I find it easy to sharpen and it holds an edge fairly long, but loses the hair popping edge almost instantly. That said, i haven't found a steel that doesn't loose that edge fast so to me that's kind of a moot point. Lately i've been curious about trying some steels that are just over S30V in performance, just to see if i can find slightly more edge retention and maybe hold that hair popping edge a little longer, but not at the cost of more chipping and excessive sharpening. I'm really curious about 3V but it's not an option yet.

[eloreno]

Lately i've been curious about trying some steels that are just over S30V in performance, just to see if i can find slightly more edge retention and maybe hold that hair popping edge a little longer, but not at the cost of more chipping and excessive sharpening. I'm really curious about 3V but it's not an option yet.

Evil,
Have you had a chance to give CTS-XHP a try? It seems like it would be about what you're looking for.

[chuck_roxas45]

Evil,
Have you had a chance to give CTS-XHP a try? It seems like it would be about what you're looking for.

Second that. Easier to sharpen with the same performance(edge holding and aggressiveness in cutting) for me.

[Evil D]

Evil,
Have you had a chance to give CTS-XHP a try? It seems like it would be about what you're looking for.

Nope, i haven't ventured much away from the typical crop of steels. The most exotic i have is 20CP, which is a pretty hardcore steel but probably a little overkill for what i'm looking for. A steel like that is for the person who wants to go extended periods without sharpening, and since i don't mind touching up on a daily basis, it gets wasted on me.

[Cliff Stamp]

ZDP-189 is a PM steel which is (or was) unique in that it is a Chromium dominant carbide former in comparison to the CPM steels which tend to be vanadium dominant. The arguments for each are fairly different. ZDP-189 argues that chromium carbide while hard, can be easily cut with all sharpening hones, even the inexpensive ones and so it sharpening, while a bit slower, still just as easily as VG-10/ATS-34 on even inexpensive hones.

The high vanadium steels ignore this and try to maximize wear resistance through a smaller amount of ultra-high carbides which are in fact harder than the inexpensive stones. This is why you tend to find that people who prefer those steels do not recommend India and similar stones and will favor silicon carbide, diamond or cbn abrasives as these can cut the vanadium carbides.

In terms of raw wear, it is still volume dependent, ZDP-189 easily out wears S30V for example, see :



This shows ZDP-189 clearly outlasting S30V cutting cardboard. Note this is an average of seven different S30V/ZDP-189 knives. The large difference seen here agrees well with the CATRA results that Sal listed for S30v and ZDP-189 which would be expected as that is also a long wear cardboard cut. In regards to S90V, ZDP-189 has similar wear, again will CATRA similar.

As for toughness, ZDP-189 and all the high carbide stainless steels are very brittle. While there are differences among them, they are only relevant in percentages. For perspective it is like comparing the weight of one model at 95 lbs vs another model at 110 lbs. One of them may be 15% heavier than another but neither one would actually be called heavy. Similar if you look at the high carbide steels they are all extremely brittle.

I normally sharpen ZDP-189 similar to 0.005"/10:15 dps. I don't have any issues with chipping outside of what would be expected, hitting metals, etc. . They wear by micro-fracture of course, that is just the aggregates coming out as they are much larger than the edge bevel, all the high carbide steels wear the same.

In short :

-it sharpens well (though slow) even on inexpensive hones

-it has a very high wear resistance (S90v class)

[Blerv]

Awesome stuff Cliff. Thank you.

Not to thread-jack but have you dabbled with Super Blue? If so, what are your personal thoughts?