New Sage 2 lockbar issues

[Muad'Dib]

I've been away from knives for a while, but I just recently got back in with the purchase of a new Sage 2. I really like the knife, the ti scales have a good feel, and the blade has more solid lock up and feel than my Sage 1, which is impressive. I have a concern about the lock interface though. The Ti contacts the tang directly, and it appears that the Ti is wearing (I've only had the knife a couple days, but I've been playing with it since I got it). Now, the problem is that the surface of the Ti lock bar is not perfectly aligned with the lock surface of the tang, it's at an angle (as opposed to the liner lock of my Sage 1, which has full parallel contact). Is this, or will this become, a problem? Does anyone else have experience with this? Thanks for the help guys.

[Blerv]

I've been away from knives for a while, but I just recently got back in with the purchase of a new Sage 2. I really like the knife, the ti scales have a good feel, and the blade has more solid lock up and feel than my Sage 1, which is impressive. I have a concern about the lock interface though. The Ti contacts the tang directly, and it appears that the Ti is wearing (I've only had the knife a couple days, but I've been playing with it since I got it). Now, the problem is that the surface of the Ti lock bar is not perfectly aligned with the lock surface of the tang, it's at an angle (as opposed to the liner lock of my Sage 1, which has full parallel contact). Is this, or will this become, a problem? Does anyone else have experience with this? Thanks for the help guys.

Can you post a pic? Thanks if possible.

[Muad'Dib]

I'm sorry, I tried for a while, but I can't get enough light or my camera to focus on either the lock surface on the tang or on the lock bar.

Basically, if you are holding a Sage 2 so that the scale with the lock bar is facing you, and the pivot point is up, then the lock surface of the lock bar should be horizontal. Only the right half of the lockbar lock surface contacts the blade tang.

My concern is that as the lock bar wears unevenly, the lock will start to "stick" to the tang when I try to disengage it, and I'm worried that it will start to cause slop. Or will the wear even out?

[wrdwrght]

Lacking a pic, I'm having difficulty seeing what you describe. I will say that I open and close my Sage2 often while working on my book or doing other wool-gathering (the clicks are some kind of reward). I've been EDCing my Sage2 for several months and the lockup is as tight as day one.

[Blerv]

I might be reading this wrong so please forgive me if so.

Based on what I believe the end edge of the lockbar is not quite even (slightly ramped) so that it doesn't lock flush with the tang. Is it about half-way on and off the tang?

If so this is normal. As a linerlock/framelock wears it will slowly move from left to right contacting the other scale (on a right-handed lock). Even when touching the scale, where people find these "unsafe" in my experience the lock still holds up great. Maybe not quite as strong but hardly unstable like old dynamite.

Does it look like either of these?

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48088

[The Deacon]

Normally the "working" end of the lockbar on a RIL lock is cut square across and the rear surface of the blade tang which it contacts is cut at an angle, to allow for wear. Because of that, the lockbar does not make full contact, at least not on a new knife.

[Muad'Dib]

Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate that you are even listening to my paranoid rambling.

As a linerlock/framelock wears it will slowly move from left to right contacting the other scale (on a right-handed lock).

I'm familiar with that. In that case you're looking at the knife with the blade edge facing you, so left to right means left = lockbar scale and right = plain scale. In my case I'm looking at the knife with the lockbar scale facing me, s left = spine side of knife and right = edge side of knife.

Or maybe I should stop being paranoid and just shut-up, enjoy my awesome new knife, and complain only if it every becomes a problem :o

[Knife Boy]

The "toe" or front end of your lock bar should engage the tang of the blade as opposed to the "heel" of the lockbar if that makes sense. This contact combined with the strength of the lock tension is what provides the right amount is "stickiness" for the lock to hold. The tang face is angled, so in order for the lockbar to meet it in parallel that would mean the face of the lockbar would have to have an equal but opposite angle and would result in the lock slipping very easily. I had this occur in a custom I once owned. A different custom maker explained this proper geometry to me.

[Muad'Dib]

Normally the "working" end of the lockbar on a RIL lock is cut square across and the rear surface of the blade tang which it contacts is cut at an angle, to allow for wear. Because of that, the lockbar does not make full contact, at least not on a new knife.

Right, I'm talking about 90 degrees axially from that (if the axis of the knife is along the handle and blade).

[johnnylighton]

My Sage 2 lock bar locks up about 40% of the way across the tang. That seems about right to me. It sounds like your knife is normal. My understanding is that the lock bar should not lock up 100% across its surface, especially when new.

[Sorry, I was writing another reply and didn't see the last several replies to this thread before I posted the above.]

[The Deacon]

Right, I'm talking about 90 degrees axially from that (if the axis of the knife is along the handle and blade).

Ok, mine engages quite uniformly from top to bottom that way. Engagement depth is still as it was in the photo in the thread Blerv linked to, about 40% to 50%.

[Blerv]

Normally the "working" end of the lockbar on a RIL lock is cut square across and the rear surface of the blade tang which it contacts is cut at an angle, to allow for wear. Because of that, the lockbar does not make full contact, at least not on a new knife.

Oh sorry, you're right Paul! I reversed that in my head. :o

[wrdwrght]

the lockbar does not make full contact, at least not on a new knife.

Engagement depth is still as it was in the photo in the thread Blerv linked to, about 40% to 50%.

My engagement depth is nearing 80%. Given my mindless opening/closing habit, I guess my Sage2 can no longer be called new.

If my engagement maxes out, I now wonder if my lockup will cease to be as solid as day one.

If so, the design, handle material, or my habit raises a question or two, no?

[Muad'Dib]

Thanks for all the responses guys. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that I'm making myself too clear. I'm not talking about engagement depth. Based on his last reply, I think that Deacon understands, and has indicated that his doesn't have the issue that mine does. I guess I'm fine with it until it causes a problem, in which case I'll have to contact Spyderco. Thanks guys.

[Muad'Dib]

Ok, since the picture I took doesn't actually show the lock engagement, I modified it in paint to show (with much exaggeration) what I'm talking about. If the red line is in line with the lock bar surface, then the lock surface of the tang is the blue line.

[gbelleh]

Thanks for the picture. I had no idea what you were talking about before. I just checked mine and those surfaces appear to line up straight. Lockup on mine is right at about 40%.

[wrdwrght]

If your "exaggerated" lines represented my Sage2, I'd want to send it to Golden for some kind of correction. How exaggerated are your lines?

[FlaMtnBkr]

I understood what you were saying and the picture verifies it. I will have to pull mine out but it seems like I remember reading that frame locks many times are designed like yours. I think it was the Sebenza that is an example of that but I don't have one of those to know for sure. I know on many framelocks, the lock only engages a small section of the tang, which yours is effectively doing by being angled.

I'm not a big fan of frame and liner locks and this is just an example why. I think if it locks up tight then use it and enjoy it. If it starts to get some play or another problem then know it has a good warranty and should be taken care of if there is a legitimate problem.

[Muad'Dib]

My "diagram" is definitely exaggerated. I've added an orange line to indicate approximately how much contact there is in that dimension (based off of the markings the Ti leaves on the tang lock surface). As far as the lock engagement in the normal direction, that seems more than adequate (approx. 2/5 of the tang). Thanks.

[Muad'Dib]

I think if it locks up tight then use it and enjoy it. If it starts to get some play or another problem then know it has a good warranty and should be taken care of if there is a legitimate problem.

I think that's what I'll do (unless someone tells me that it is definitely abnormal and problematic). I just have a tendency to obsess about new toys. I also worked as a quality engineer, and have a tendency to look for problems.