Closest alternative to UKPK with no hole in blade (ie 2-hand open)?

[hogfish]

I just moved to NYC. My knife-enthusiast friend highly recommends Spyderco products (and I've handled them, they seem very well made), and knowing NYC doesn't allow locking knives, he suggested the UKPK.

I want one really bad.

BUT - NYC knife laws are more restrictive than I realized. Specifically, to legally carry a knife on your person, I believe the requirements are:

-Cannot be a "gravity knife"
-Must require 2-hand opening
-Must not lock in the open position
-Blade must be less than 4 inches

That 2-hand opening part disqualifies the UKPK (and arguably the DKPK) because of the hole in the blade. Are there any Spyderco models that are essentially the same minus the hole? Any other suggestions?

If I could find a 2-hand opening equivalent of the UKPK I would be a happy camper.

Thanks!

[DCDesigns]

The hole is their trade mark. You will not find any with out it. (unless its some really super obscure knife that deacon only knows about lol). They even put the hole on their fixed blades.

However, Im pretty sure you might be wrong about the two handed opening thing. Im not entirely sure, perhaps someone more knowledgeable will chime in.

[jabba359]

The only non-hole Spydie was the C27 Jess Horn. It is very hard to find, very expensive, and nothing like the UKPK. While I'm not entirely certain, I don't believe that two-hand opening is a requirement. The UKPK should be fine, but you would have to carry it clip-less (as you can't have a knife visible in NYC). There's a few people on the forums here that live in NYC, so they can probably give you better guidance on what is and isn't allowed there.

edited to add: After reading on kniferights.org, it seems that the knives they've been targeting are "locking one-hand openers and assisted openers". So it appears two-handed locking knives or one-handed non-locking knives (like the UKPK, Squeak, Terzuola slip-it, etc) are "safe". But I'm no lawyer and the law there seems to be predicated on Vance's ever-changing whims rather than anything concrete, so take my advice with that in mind.

[Blerv]

Yea but fixed blades are cool. Get a Street Beat

[Knifewing]

I just got a DKPK and it's great. Even though it has the appearance of a Spyder hole, you really can't open it one handed (which I believe was the point of this model). They're very hard to find and can be expensive if you do find one, but they're similar to a black-handled Urban or a Caly Jr. You'd probably like it a lot if the sub-3" blade length is OK in NY.

[suedeface]

Vance needs to be put in to an orange jump suit....

[hogfish]

Thanks so much for the input everyone. I spent a sold hour looking up rules and was shocked that there is no centralized place to find the answer to what is allowed. I did come across a number of 'prominent' cases which centered around the question of whether one-handed opening = gravity knife (thus making it illegal), and I thought the conclusion was that in the eyes of NYC it does.

If that's not the case, I am glad, and will look forward to a new UKPK! I'm thinking an orange handle because it has a 'utility' look versus a weapon look. Also, has anyone tried the Grasshopper? (http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11279610) That one seems pretty nice too - really slick/minimalist look.

If anyone is an NYC knife owner (or knows someone's username) I'd love to talk to them about their EDC choice. I grew up in Florida and I've had a knife in my back pocket for the last 15 years; it got a lot more use as a tool than it did as a weapon...

[jabba359]

If anyone is an NYC knife owner (or knows someone's username) I'd love to talk to them about their EDC choice. I grew up in Florida and I've had a knife in my back pocket for the last 15 years; it got a lot more use as a tool than it did as a weapon...

I'd recommend getting in touch with Dr. Snubnose (http://spyderco.com/forums/member.php?u=3438), as he knows a thing or two about carrying knives, is right there close to NYC (his Kung Fu center is on Long Island), and is a very helpful, great guy too!

[On Edge]

The Deacon and/or Dr. Snubnose can almost certainly lend some clarification, as I believe both are proud residents of the Empire State.

[The Deacon]

The Deacon and/or Dr. Snubnose can almost certainly lend some clarification, as I believe both are proud residents of the Empire State.

I left New York a few moths back, and never lived in NYC.

However. the problem in NYC is not the laws as they are written, it's the laws as they're interpreted. State law, as written, totally bans switchblades and gravity knives. Unless there have been recent changes, NYC law, as written, prohibits the carry of balisongs and knives with blades over 4" long. It also prohibits carrying any knife if that knife is not fully concealed.

Where the problem comes in is that, on orders from the Manhattan DA, NYPD will consider pretty much any locking folder which can be forced to open by grasping either the handle or the blade and violently snapping your entire arm to be a gravity knife and grounds for arrest. So, not just knives with holes in the blade, but any locking folder with a blade exposed enough to be grasped between thumb and forefinger and which does not have a backspring stronger than the average bear trap, can get you charged with possession of a gravity knife.

So, in theory, a UKPK would be fine, as long as it's carried loose in your pocket. But, given the way Mr. Vance and his minions have already played fast and loose with the law, SAKs might be ruled gravity knives next week.

[Cave Dave]

As I understand it the problem isn't if it locks but if it can be opened using inertia or gravity in any way. Almost any modern knife design can be opened by holding the blade and flicking the handle. I can even open my Urban on the second try in this manor.

I have two locking knifes that can't be opened easily in the manor "The Deacon" described above.

The Kershaw 1993-2. A very well made lockback with a thumbnail nick and no clip. Can be found for $42.

Kershaw G10 Hawk. It has a clip and a thumbstud, but has almost no blade showing above the scale. It is extremely difficult to open one handed even with the stud, which is normally a disadvantage but might me an advantage in NYC. Mine might have an unusually strong detent though. Take the clip and maybe the tumbstud off. Can be found for less than $20.

I got both from Kershawguy.

[pmbspyder]

I'm an nyc resident, and can offer a few words of advice if interested.

1)If you're not concerned about the laws, you can carry any kind of knife "in the pocket" ie not using the clip, you will be fine as long as you're not whipping it out everywhere and in front of police
2)You can legally carry a ukpk, sak, etc. Any knife that doesn't lock open and is under 3".
3)you can also carry a fixed blade under 4" in blade length as long as it is not showing (must be fully concealed). This is what I most often do
4)there is a clause i believe about intent, so if a cop stops you and deems that you have no reasonable reason for carrying a knife, he can confiscate it. That being said, in most cases the law is ambiguous enough so that really it all depends on the officer confronting you. I've seen police confiscate sak's before, but I've also seen them hand larger locking knives back to people upon further inspection. It really is up to how they're feeling that day.

All that being said, carry a sak, ukpk, other small slippie, or a small fixed blade and you will be fine (as long as they are fully concealed) and well within the law.

[2cha]

Last year I gave my step-brother a SS Delica. This summer, while riding his bike to work, a police officer in Brooklyn stopped him, asked him if the pocket clip he had observed was attached to a knife, measured the knife against his palm, and tried to centrifugally open the knife. He said something like, "you're luck this knife is legal," but then confiscated the Delica anyway and gave him a $300 fine for openly carrying a knife.

The problem wasn't the lock.
The problem wasn't one hand opening.
The problem was "open display."

Judge threw the whole thing out, he didn't say why, but I think it is because the "Terry Stop" was unconstitutional. The knife is still gone as is my brother's dignity and time.

So, it seems like locking knife is ok if it's not too long and won't swing open. You just can't use the clip. Maybe IWB is the solution to quick access.

[wsdavies]

I guess my thought is: Why would anyone want to live in a state that doesn't honor personal liberty?

[pmbspyder]

I guess my thought is: Why would anyone want to live in a state that doesn't honor personal liberty?

eh, unfortunately the career is lined up in nyc. desperately trying to get out though, trust me on that

[pmbspyder]

The problem wasn't the lock.
The problem wasn't one hand opening.
The problem was "open display."

The PROBLEM, is that cops don't know what the **** the laws are and are open to interpret them as they see fit. Ergo, most often they will take your knife if they want it. Openly carrying any type of blade in nyc will get you a fine and have it confiscated. The cop your brother dealt with obviously had no idea what he was talking about, but seemed to have little problem taking the knife from him (it was an illegal knife, but he told your brother all the wrong things about the actual law). It's actually pretty funny, i feel more uneasy around police officers than I do walking around the streets in Harlem. Their self-interpreted exclusion from laws that govern civies sometimes makes them verrry verrry dangerous to the public.

*add - I have nothing bad to say about honest, hard working police officers, and have much respect for the profession...it's just most of the ones I observe in my area break more laws than the people they arrest do...YMMV

[The Deacon]

I guess my thought is: Why would anyone want to live in a state that doesn't honor personal liberty?

Carried to its logical, if irrational, conclusion, that would limit one pretty severely. A number of states restrict the ownership of automatic and gravity knives and an even larger number prohibit them from being carried on one's person. The same is true, to a lesser extent, for balisongs. Many states, or cities within a state, places restrictions on blade length. Other types of knives cannot be carried in some states. Texas, for example, won't let folks carry a Bowie knife. Every state places arbitrary restrictions on who one can marry. Few, if any, allow one to walk around naked in public. I am curious, what bastion of personal liberty do you reside in?

[Drkknight614]

I still only carry a SAK when I go into the city. I went last night and even though I recently got a UKPK I still chose not to carry it. Reasons being that nyc was supposedly on heightened alert, even though I didnt see any more cops then usual, but if I were stopped, I didnt want any hassel. And even though the UKPK is legal, the cops interpretation is what matters. If he confiscated my sak...oh well, Ill get another. If he took the ukpk, well thats not as easy to obtain and a little more money.