My thoughts and frustrations with Spyderco

[Purelite]

Ok, I lurk alot and say little. I enjoy these forums and have gleaned alot of useful info on here .

I have had many Spydercos over the years. I think my first one was some 20 years ago. One of the early Delicas maybe? Though I have owned and used many other brands and styles of knives over this time I am always drawn back to Spyderco even with all the new makes and models out there now. I just love the Spyder hole and the ones with finger choils.

To illustrate how much I like I like Spyderco, I have never liked liner locks. I despise them. For many reasons. Then I got a good deal on a Military. So good I couldnt pass it up. From the moment I took it out I was captivated by this knife. With the finger choil and high end quality of the knife with no finishing flaws and a lock that is rock solid with no blade play to the nice long ergonomic handle I was hooked . Of course it helped to get it for a very good price. Otherwise I would never have had the opportunity to own one. Having handled one now would I pay the average going rate online for them? Yes I would. The only reason I have sold the Military pictured below is because I dont really like coated blades. I am a natural blade kinda person. And I have found a plain uncoated Military where I will break even in the process. It is worth the hassle for this to me.

Here though is where I have major problems with Spyderco and how things have gone with this brand.

I really find this Sprint Run stuff quite frustrating and annoying. The trend now solidly entrenched in the Spyderco business process is to continually bring out Sprint Models in very small quantities. Now I can completely understand the desire to have a knife that is rare/unique and in limited production and to take pride in ownership. But what I see now is a process that is just taking advantage of people and squeezing more $ out of them. The moment a Sprint is announced all the retailers put in orders and do preorders which always max out in short order. Then when the knives finally begin showing up they all end up on Ebay for up to twice their original price.
It happens so smoothly and so often it has to be a system designed with a purpose and not just an occasional anomaly.

Now I know this is America and people can charge what they want and you can pay or not pay. But to me this has just become manipulation of us the consumer and Spyderco lover.It's obvious some dont seem to mind this and have the ability to pay exhorbitant prices on these knives. I cant so bummer for me. But, when a knife like the new Brown Handle Military comes out and is considered a Sprint run? C'mon. I really would love a brown handled Military but I aint paying 200+. How can a change in handle color be that big of a deal?

Here is what I am getting at. If I am running a business and a certain item sells out fast and demand is strong I get more of that item on my shelves quick!! That way I make money and the customer demand is met. Pretty logical yes? But with Spyderco almost every Sprint run is a huge success and though many clamor for more they are never seen again. And on a particular modle like the Military which has been a long time favorite of consumers why not offer it in a cpl cool colors en masse like the green and brown handled ones. I dont mean make billions of them but make them readily available in equal numbers Black/Green/Orange/Brown. Why not ? You would end up making way more profit than just offering 600 pieces.

But what I see is a wierd relationship between Spyderco and the wealthy/greedy who snatch these Sprint runs up and then turn around and squeeze the rest of us slobs. Now I dont see much complaining especially on here and I understand this is more of a fan club forum and not open to all discussion. I hope I dont get attacked for stating my thoughts. I am a Spydie fan myself but I grow weary of never being able to obtain even the most simplist ov model variations like a different color handle . I know most on here will not see my opinions as valid and thats fine. If you like the way things are going then this is paradise for you.

I know the made in China models are an attempt to satisfy the masses who wont/cant spend the higher amounts to acquire a CO. made Spydie but I find nothing attractive in those models. The designs do not appeal to though I have heard they are very well made they just dont match a true Spydie.

I know why some of these knives are small runs and sprints also. Many are in new types of steel which is cool and others are designs made in collaboration with custom knife makers which is also cool. I understand why some of these command such high prices. But on the more mainstream workhorse models like the delica,endura and Military why not offer the options like handle colors at the regular prices? How come the Orange Militaries didnt go over very well but they are everywhere? Why are left handed models show up everywhere? Why not charge a huge premium on the black coated Militaries and make those a sprint? Why not make an Endura or Military with a gree/brown/orange handle and a Black coated blade? That would sell like hotcakes and require no new designing or retooling. I dont get it. Can someone explain all this to me and relieve my frustration? I tire of looking at something like the cool brown handles Military and never being able to actually acquiring one without using an entire weeks pay to get it



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Ankerson]

All you have to do is put forth the effort and pay attention to when the Sprint runs will come available to preorder and you won't have any problems.

You don't even have to jump on them the 1st day usually.

[Jordan]

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49620

I think that the sprint question is more complicated than you give it credit... it was explored fairly in depth in the above thread though, hopefully that helps to explain some of the complexities involved.

Personally, I like the sprints the way they are. I've never had trouble getting one I really wanted (of which there have really only been two... to be fair, the ayoob and the rookie) by keeping track of the new release threads and occasionally checking my favorite online retailers for preorders. I certainly have never had to get on ebay and pay double or triple the value of the knife. I don't want to sound condescending... but I think that if many of the people who complain about the unavailability of certain sprints just paid more attention, their problems might just solve themselves. There are, of course, exceptions... extremely in demand sprints that sell out instantly... but I hardly blame Spyderco for lacking the ability to predict which models will fit into that category and which will by and large sit on the shelves gathering dust for a while. That is just my rather unqualified two cents though, hope this helps to relieve some of that frustration bud :) .

[rycen]

The brown military has a different blade steel too. I understand what you are saying but you can't blame spyderco for what something sells for on the secondary market.

The orange military sold very well. So well they made them a regular item. This made everyone that paid a premium upset.

[Meshuggah]

I feel ya man, people just buying up 5+ knives and then turning around and selling them for 30% is one of the things I seriously dislike about this whole knife-thing.
It's smart of them, but it shouldn't be about making money...

[pry]

I understand what you are saying and can somewhat empathize. I also find the sprint runs to be pretty sweet, and not especially overpriced for the exotic steels/handle materials you are getting. I think part of the reason they are so popular and sell out so fast is just because they are unique, rare, uncommon, which makes them more desirable. I do agree that some models that are sprints should just be regular production though. Like why not make a S30v FFG manix 2? The majority of us like the FFG and S30V steel, so it seems more like a regular production configuration than a sprint run. The carbon fiber is another thing, I have been wanting a nice CF handled para 2 or millie, but I don't necessarily need the S90V or M390 that I would have to pay for with a sprint run.

Not really sure what else to tell you. The sprints are mostly for the hard core collectors/knife fanatics. Love or hate them I would hate to see them go away.

Regarding the Chinese line of products, they have to purposely design them with goofy blade shapes and somewhat off shaped handles so that they don't compete with the more expensive models.

[pmbspyder]

I hear what you're saying man, but at the end of the day it's a sound, fair business model. Spyderco puyts out sprints to gain insight and get feedback on different things....steel, handle color etc. Whatever is very successful usually makes it into production somewhere down the line. I think your major gripe here is that with all the knife collectors and ebayers around, it's hard to get a sprint at dealer prices. I totally agree. That being said, the onus is on you to keep track and check when the model you want is coming out. You can hardly blame Spyderco for such a thing (and I'm not a fanboy, trust me).

It's just like any L.E. Of anything; get it while you can or miss out. I hear and can empathize with your frustration, but this thread should be titled "Some Ebayers really piss me off!"

Last thing: I've actually spoken to a few dealers about people buying multiple sprints just for resale, and they don't like it either. Some have recently changed to a 1 per customer limit, so there is light at the end of the tunnel bud!

[Blerv]

Fooled ya trolls. :p

All of my knives look and work great. My Massad Ayoob sprint is perfection but then again I don't have a jewler's loop. I'll update this in a few years when I FINALLY get a bad one. :rolleyes:

Seriously though, my only problem with Spyderco is I feel like they should be charging more money. The greifers I had in the service department with brand new flawed made less noise.

Fanboi 4 Lyf3 :spyder: :D :spyder: :D :spyder:

[pmbspyder]

OP I hope you're checking this thread frequently, because I have a surprise for ya: knifecenter has the brown millies in stock right now at dealer price. I'd say from the time I post this to the time they're gone will be under 15 minutes. Hope you can get one man!

[jackknifeh]

I don't understand the entire process or the long term results of the sprint runs. I have 3 "unique" knives. 1. Michael Walker w/ZDP-189, CF. It was the last MW sprint run. I bought it not even knowing what a sprint run was. Lucky timing. Love the knife. 2. Blue Stretch w/ZDP-189. Another lucky timing thing. Now they are BRG in color. The blue wasn't a sprint run. I wish I knew how many blue FRN ones there are. 3. Manix2 w/M4 and tan G-10. This was a dealer exclusive at bentoboxshop.com. Not a sprint run though, or they didn't call it that I don't think. I pre-ordered this because I wanted a Manix2 with M4. Only one I got that I actually planned for. I made blue G-10 scales for it. I like it better now but there wasn't anything wrong with the tan. I use all of these and only buy knives to use. If I lost the MW I would want to replace it but would have to pay a lot more for it if I could find one at all. I've even thought about getting another now when I know I can even at a higher price. That's how much I like the knife. Others feel the same obout this Michael Walker. So, like you I don't understand why Spyderco doesn't make more of what the customers want knowing they will sell. Sorry about the ebayers who won't make more money on them.

Jack

[Blerv]

I feel ya man, people just buying up 5+ knives and then turning around and selling them for 30% is one of the things I seriously dislike about this whole knife-thing.
It's smart of them, but it shouldn't be about making money...

I know right?

I bought a Rock Salt for $108 when the price dropped and sold it 12 months later for $335 on eBay.

Wait...what was the question?

[jossta]

I don't think what your issues have anything to do with Spyderco. If they wanted to only release sprints through Spyderco.com and sell them only for MSRP and make a much larger profit on them then they do on all their other knives, they could. And they would sell every single one of them, but they don't do that. Spyderco's pricing model is the same for every single knife, limited or not. It's a certain percentage over cost. I just got out of a marketing class where we were instructed specifically not to price this way b/c you could very easily end up selling a lot of products under what the market will handle.

Spyderco keeps doing it this way b/c they are awesome and it works for them. I'm also pretty sure that they are more knife enthusiast than business men/women, which is also awesome and works out well for us. Most of the sprints are not just scale color changes. If that were the case, I think they would make more money just selling handle scales by themselves. Most of them are steel changes or discontinued models being released in limited quantities. With very little effort you can find sprint models direct from dealers at non marked up prices. Actually, deals can be found at almost any secondary market site other than eBay.

Spyderco has limited production capabilities and without sprints, both parties would be missing out. Consumers wouldn't have as many models or innovative materials to choose from and Spyderco themselves would lose feedback.

I will admit that I buy and sell Sprints sometimes. I don't do it for money. I do it so I can experience what every one else does with the sprints. Without that extra money, I wouldn't be able to get any new knives. Maybe that's my problem, but that's how I deal with it. I do it to help pay for my knives and b/c I have somewhat of a problem with compulsively checking the internet for new information, I am very good at getting sprints, but they can be had with MUCH MUCH MUCH less effort than I put in.

I also go WAY out of my way to point out to others on here and other forums when they become available and where, even if I have knives for sale on that site. I'm not saying I'm proud of it, but I don't feel bad about it either. I spend A LOT of time to make sure I don't miss out on anything I want. If you don't like it, that is completely fine and I totally understand where you're coming from, but you don't HAVE to buy them at those prices. 15 min of research here and there and you'll be able to get what you want. ****, less than that. If you REALLY don't have the time to find one, PM me and I will try to give you a heads up when they hit dealers/pre-orders. I would be glad to help anyone on here. Sprints don't sell out as fast as people think unless they involve CF/S90v.

[phaust]

I can't say I disagree with most of what you say. Sprints aren't production because they aren't expected to have a consistent demand, so they aren't put into at production, but there is some demand, so they are made in one lump. That I understand. I also understand Spyderco doesn't do much towards trying to come up with a precise demand of each sprint, but where I loose understanding is why they do not use history to dictate amount of production when the history so clearly favors increasing it.

To explain, for Spyderco, as it is for any company, the ideal is to produce the exact amount as the demand dictates. IIRC, the theoretical goal in business is to produce one more item than demand dictates. That gives them the most profit without having to sit on the excess pieces. In a market where the only players are the seller and buyers, the differential between demand and the number produced in a sprint directly corresponds to resale price. In other words, demand may be precisely measured by resale prices in the second-hand market. If demand is over-satisfied, everyone who really wanted one has one, so resale price will be lower than the initial sale price. If demand is under-satisfied, then resale price will be higher than the initial price.

Reality differs from that model in a few notable ways. For one, the details about a sprint run can differ from the final product. The M4 Military is an example; it came with the lock bar insert that no one expected. This can change the model because demand changes in response, and that occurs after the sprint has already been released. Initial price is not changed as a result because it is set before the change occurred (both MSRP and pre-order price), but it influences resale price, so the relationship between resale price and demand becomes skewed--still related, but skewed from the model; that is the least important difference between model and reality, however, in the sense that resale price still is very usable as a measure of demand.

A more important difference is that the market is not comprised solely of one seller and buyers (except in the case of Mules). If Spyderco set the sales price of their dealers, it would not be so significant, but they don't, so instead of measuring demand at a single price, we're measuring demand at multiple prices. The result is measuring demand by resale price becomes inexact--still usable, but not as precise.

Another difference, one that influences resale price without affecting the initial price, is that resale happens after initial sale. What I mean is if both took place instantaneously, then the model would hold. Since resale takes place later, there are influencing factors, like people who want one but don't have money at the time of sale. I suspect this is mitigated a great deal by having pre-orders so much earlier than the release date, but, for instance, take the first difference where someone might not have been interested in the initial description of the M4 Military, but upon hearing about the lockbar insert or perhaps seeing pictures from new owners now wants one. Demand like this, after the initial sale, makes measuring demand by resale price a little harder to model.

Finally, another important difference is change in demand from outside influences. With the economy worsening, other brands releasing competing models, etc., there is change in demand unrelated to the sprint itself. This is perhaps the largest "unknown" affecting modeling demand.

The point to all of this is that I can understand Spyderco being reluctant to use previous sprint sales to come up with the exact number to use in future sprint sales. A genius modeler or statistician could only come up with a "best guess", not a precise number, and the unknowns affecting demand could make the spread between them large. However, we're not talking about resale price being only slightly different than initial sales price. In some cases, we see the resale price go up 50-100%, sometimes even before the sprint has been fully released through dealers, and we never see the resale price lower than the initial sales price. This says we do not need that genius modeler to realize sprint numbers are lower than demand, vastly lower in cases like the Paramilitary 2. I am with you, wondering why sprints of popular models, at least, haven't had their totals ramped up significantly.

Wow, I just hit "previewed post" and released this got way longer than I set out to write. I think I'll end there :p

[jackknifeh]

I know right?

I bought a Rock Salt for $108 when the price dropped and sold it 12 months later for $335 on eBay.

Wait...what was the question?

I understand the frustration about this and have felt it myself. But if I bought a knife for $108 and could sell it for $335 (or $1,000,000) I would and not feel the least bit bad. Like the OP said, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head. I saw a $80 shop vac enclosed in glass go for about $15,000 at an art show on TV once. It celebrated the "domestic" age or something like that. :D At first I thought it was ripping off the client but then I thought I should take my hat off to the "artist" for finding someone that stupid. But we all spend money on stupid things in someone else's eyes.

Jack

[Donut]

I think there is a little more to this. I've seen sprints that were not too popular, the White Goddard Jr sprint a year or two ago seemed to sit on shelves for a couple years before they all disappeared. I don't see too much of a problem with the limited availability.

I think if you pay attention, you can get the sprints. For example, the Knifeworks exclusive M4 Military I did not pre-order or even know what was so special about it until I started seeing pictures of it. I emailed knifeworks because I know that with any pre-order, a lot of people will back out. I was able to get one at their price even when they were selling for $300 on ebay. Last week I started a thread to see if anyone knew who had the new Manix sprint in stock, they knew several places.


Does anyone know who has the Brown Military in stock?

[hunterseeker5]

There are plenty of issues surrounding the sprints, namely scalping and "lack of availability," but there are two real punchlines behind it:

First spyderco isn't getting rich on these sprints, they sell them at comparable prices to the non-sprint versions of whatever they are making.
Second it gives us enthusiasts a chance to try something exotic at a much lower price than a custom.

Its not a perfect system, but if it really matters to you keep an eye on the forums for when the next sprint is announced and get one. I realize most of my anger, and most people's for that matter, toward the system is the unattainability of a sprint missed. Keep your head on a swivel and you'll catch the next one though. Also, and this is a well kept secret, the best sprints are yet to come because steels and materials are getting better and better. :P Today's sprint is better than yesterday's, and isn't a match for tomorrow's.

[cckw]

I didn't bother to read the whole rant of the OP. I got distracted by the worlds smallest violin playing in the background.

Maybe any person with this attitude should make his point by never buying a sprint run knife from anyone at any price. that would ruin the market for sprints, then Spyderco will come crawling back to you... eventually, so be persistent.

[The Deacon]

I have to wonder if anyone has ever counted the number of pieces from any given Sprint Run or Sponsored Exclusive that got "flipped" on eBay within, say 4 months of their release and also tracked if the same piece may have gotten flipped more than once. My gut tells me that the numbers are fairly small and that well over 90% of any given run are purchased initially, at regular prices, by folks who intend to either add them to their private collection, or use them. At least that was the case back when I was expanding my collection rapidly, purchasing pretty much any Sprint that came along, and checking for new Spyderco listings on eBay several times a day.

When we don't get something we want, we want to blame someone or something for that and speculators are a convenient target.

[Ankerson]

I am sure there are some who buy them just to sell them at a higher price, but they are a small number I think.

[pmbspyder]

Does anyone know who has the Brown Military in stock?

Knifecenter had them more than an hour ago when I originally posted it in this thread...not sure about now