New to ZDP and D2 - Need Sharpening Advice

[pastormarty]

For Christmas, I'm getting knives in both these steels, but up to now I've never worked with anything harder than VG10 and am new to that. Any advice on how to get the most out of the higher end steels. FYI - I'm also getting a Sharpmaker and DMT hone in Crs/XCrs.

[yablanowitz]

Welcome aboard!

The best advice I can give you is have patience. ZDP-189 is hard enough to feel like it is just sliding over the stone, but it is being abraded. Slowly, but it is happening. Keep your pressure very light and use many strokes to get the job done. Increasing pressure so you can feel the abrasive bite into the steel results in a poor edge. ZDP can hold a 30 degree edge easily in most use, so don't be afraid to use the backbevel setting on the SharpMaker to do the final edge.

[Evil D]

My biggest mistake with ZDP was not bringing up enough burr on both sides before going to the next grit stone. You must make a burr to sharpen the knife...either you're not hitting the edge or you're not using diamond stones. Once it's sharpened to your liking, keep it touched up often.

[jackknifeh]

For Christmas, I'm getting knives in both these steels, but up to now I've never worked with anything harder than VG10 and am new to that. Any advice on how to get the most out of the higher end steels. FYI - I'm also getting a Sharpmaker and DMT hone in Crs/XCrs.

The first thing you need to know when sharpening is where is the stone hitting the edge of your knife. The easiest way to know is to use a magic marker to mark the entire edge of your knife then give it one or two slow steady strokes across the stone. Wherever the magic marker is removed is where the stone and steel met. With the sharpmaker there should not be any marker right on the edge when using the 40 degree angles (actually it’s 20 degrees per side of your blade). You should be able to keep your new knives sharp forever with the sharpmaker. There is supposed to be a DVD with directions that comes with your sharpener. Also, there is lots of help from people on this forum.

If you are thinking about reprofiling or anything that’s a longer conversation.

Patience is key. Since the steel is harder it will take longer to sharpen it which means it should STAY sharp longer also. I have the theory that what happens to VG-10 with 5 strokes takes 10 on ZDP-189.

Don’t get discouraged with trying to sharpen ZDP. I did but with patience and practice I can put a razor edge on it now.

Use the magic marker and be patient.

Hope this helps,
Jack

[dj moonbat]

My advice would be to find some other person, who has no aversion to repetitive tasks -- and get them to do it.

[ChapmanPreferred]

Watch the video that comes with the Sharpmaker more than once. Start your sharpening efforts on your VG-10 knife so you get the muscle memory without getting too discouraged. If you follow the instructions and reach each "check mark" that Sal mentions (catch your nail, cut food/paper, etc) you should be able to get to hair shaving sharp pretty easily. It is a hand sharpening method and will take longer then power driven methods you might see on youtube. :)

My only other suggestions are to always use the guards and do not allow distractions in the room while you are sharpening.

Best wishes on your new sharpening adventure. Please report back how it goes.

Doug

[jackknifeh]

Watch the video that comes with the Sharpmaker more than once. Start your sharpening efforts on your VG-10 knife so you get the muscle memory without getting too discouraged. If you follow the instructions and reach each "check mark" that Sal mentions (catch your nail, cut food/paper, etc) you should be able to get to hair shaving sharp pretty easily. It is a hand sharpening method and will take longer then power driven methods you might see on youtube. :)

My only other suggestions are to always use the guards and do not allow distractions in the room while you are sharpening.

Best wishes on your new sharpening adventure. Please report back how it goes.

Doug

Hey Doug,
I would like to see Sal's training on the sharpmaker. I haven't noticed it on the web site but I haven't looked either. Youtube maybe? I've never even seen one in person. I did see it demonstrated in a video that Evil-D put on this forum a few weeks ago. I think it was Sal doing the demo.

Sorry about the change of subject. I'll stop now.

Jack

[jackknifeh]

Pastor,
I was wondering which stones you are getting from DMT because I've been using their products for a few years. There are few companies that I believe all their products are great for their purpose. The ones I have anyway. I'm glad to hear you are getting the Sharpmaker. DMT has an aligner clamp system for sharpening knives that is very good but has a few minor issues that the Sharpmaker won't have. I used the aligner for over 3 years so I found out for myself. You should have plenty of time practicing with the Sharpmaker before your new knives need to be sharpened (unless you like to cut bricks in half :) ).

Are the knives in your house yet? Are they under the tree? That drives me nuts. I've even been guilty of opening the presents carefully when I know what is in one, checking it out, then wrapping it up again very neat. I know, I'm a child.

Jack

[Jazz]

I just thinned the edge on my new ZDP 189 D4 big time and did not find it any harder to sharpen than any other steel. Norton stones don't back down from anything, I guess. I sharpen freehand, by the way, and the stone is double-sided. This is not to brag, either - I was expecting it to be hard because of what everyone says, but I guess there's only one real way to find things out. :D

- best wishes, Jazz.

[Handwrecker]

Yeah, ZDP isn't nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be, you just need quality stones. I sharpen everything with the Sharpmaker, and have had no problems with ZDP. It definitely helps to touch it up rather than let it go to pot, but you really shouldn't have to touch it up very often. It'll hold it's edge for a very long time, and it seems to naturally want to take a very fine edge.

With the DMTs and the Sharpmaker you should have no trouble. The Sharpmaker really is as easy as sharpening gets, just take your time and have fun.

[jackknifeh]

I just thinned the edge on my new ZDP 189 D4 big time and did not find it any harder to sharpen than any other steel. Norton stones don't back down from anything, I guess. I sharpen freehand, by the way, and the stone is double-sided. This is not to brag, either - I was expecting it to be hard because of what everyone says, but I guess there's only one real way to find things out. :D

- best wishes, Jazz.

Yeah, ZDP isn't nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be, you just need quality stones. I sharpen everything with the Sharpmaker, and have had no problems with ZDP. It definitely helps to touch it up rather than let it go to pot, but you really shouldn't have to touch it up very often. It'll hold it's edge for a very long time, and it seems to naturally want to take a very fine edge.

With the DMTs and the Sharpmaker you should have no trouble. The Sharpmaker really is as easy as sharpening gets, just take your time and have fun.

It’s interesting to see the different experiences people have with things. I had a terrible time with ZDP-189 when I got my first one. It was a Michael Walker. I just couldn’t get it sharp. The best I could do was it could barely shave my arm. I already had the basics of sharpening and understood that it was no more than removing steel. What I was trying to do was get low angles with only one bevel. I wanted a 20 degree inclusive edge. Now when you can’t get an edge sharp with that angle something is wrong. I believe what ended up being wrong was my ability and level of knowledge. I got advice from lots of people on this forum as well as other sources. Some of the people had no problem with ZDP and others were like me. Well, to make a long story short I’ve overcome whatever problems I had. I now also have a Stretch and D4 with ZDP and all three of my ZDP knives are as sharp as a razor and I know exactly how to get that edge back quickly. The thing that helped me most was giving up on the low angles with a single bevel, which means wide bevels. I gave up on them for two reasons. One was the amount of time it takes to remove steel on wide bevels with harder steels and the finer stones. I just didn’t want to spend the time it took to get good results. Also, what I’ve found about ZDP is the very thin edge gets chipped easily. The chips are sometimes not visible to the naked eye without close examination. If you run your fingernail down the edge or slice a piece of paper the nicks will be very apparent. These small nicks did not hinder cutting performance in any way. They just bugged the crap out of me. The angle at the very edge was about 30 degrees inclusive. After about a year of experimenting with low edge angles I’ve come to the opinion that Spyderco’s opinion is the overall best standard. This theory is sharpening your knife to a back bevel of 30 degrees inclusive. Then use 40 degrees as your sharpening angle so you know you are always hitting the edge and getting a razor edge without removing a lot of steel. This is what the Sharpmaker is designed for. Here is the funny thing. I was being told by a professional sharpener of over 40 years that the very low angles are only desirable for a few specific uses. I was given this advice from people who had many years more experience than I did but being a member of the human race (sometimes phrased “idiot race” lol), I had to find out for myself. I’ve been sharpening my own knives all my life but only in the past 3 or 4 years started trying for the sharper edges. I’m getting significantly better and am still learning. Sharpening knives is not all that difficult but there is a lot to it depending on how much you want to learn.

Pastor,
I told the story of my experience with harder steel for your information. This Christmas you will have nice knives with harder steel than VG-10 (which is my favorite) and a nice sharpening system. You indicated you are kind of new to sharpening. I didn’t get the idea you are brand new though. Either way I hope you get the hang of the harder steels faster than I did. I’d be interested in hearing how it goes so please let us know. Your experience could help others also.

Happy Holidays,
Jack

[Evil D]

When i brought down the back bevel on my Delica, i could feel the years slipping out of me LOL. It took a good few hours even with diamond stones to bring that sucker down...but then again i was dealing with a much larger bevel surface area than most people will bother with so i think it was reasonable, all things considered.

Like i've said before on this topic though...it's really only reprofiling that's difficult with these super hard steels, and how often do you really have to reprofile? I'm more concerned with having to hone out chips and dings.

[toomzz]

My first experiences with ZDP, about 5 years ago on Calypso jr, where about just as worse as described above. I just couldn´t get it sharp again. I also use the sharpmaker/set, for over 15 years now.
Now I am hooked on ZDP, it is indeed an incredible high quality cutlery steel.

I found out that patience is the key with ZDP. When in normal use, when you won´t let the steel become too dull, an ultrafine sharpmaker-rod does the trick. With a few strokes left and right the blade gets razor sharp again.
However a duller ZDP-blade takes a lot of time. I even usually begin with diamond rods or stones, before even thinking of the grey, white and ultra-fine ceramic sharpmaker-stones.

I used too sharpen my knives freehand with the rods, but most recently I build my own little bench. Here it is possible to maintain the original (or any desired) angle. Particulary for ZDP I found out that is a benefit to maintain a straight bevel. The risk of freehand sharpening is that the bevel gets convex over time and in the case of ZDP it gets more difficult to get it sharp again because the steel is so hard.

Patience, straight bevel, don't let it become too dull or start with diamond.

Hope this adds a little help,
Stay sharp,
Tomas

[jackknifeh]

My first experiences with ZDP, about 5 years ago on Calypso jr, where about just as worse as described above. I just couldn´t get it sharp again. I also use the sharpmaker/set, for over 15 years now.
Now I am hooked on ZDP, it is indeed an incredible high quality cutlery steel.

I found out that patience is the key with ZDP. When in normal use, when you won´t let the steel become too dull, an ultrafine sharpmaker-rod does the trick. With a few strokes left and right the blade gets razor sharp again.
However a duller ZDP-blade takes a lot of time. I even usually begin with diamond rods or stones, before even thinking of the grey, white and ultra-fine ceramic sharpmaker-stones.

I used too sharpen my knives freehand with the rods, but most recently I build my own little bench. Here it is possible to maintain the original (or any desired) angle. Particulary for ZDP I found out that is a benefit to maintain a straight bevel. The risk of freehand sharpening is that the bevel gets convex over time and in the case of ZDP it gets more difficult to get it sharp again because the steel is so hard.

Patience, straight bevel, don't let it become too dull or start with diamond.

Hope this adds a little help,
Stay sharp,
Tomas

I'm very curious about the bench you built. Could you provide pictures?

Jack

[Evil D]

I'll also add, it makes a HUGE difference in reprofiling effort if you're working with a thick saber grind blade such as my Delica, compared to something super thin like a Caly 3. The steel behind the edge is much thicker on the saber grind, which i'm sure added to the effort it took to get mine down.

[toomzz]

...all the credits goes to my father in law... I know, it looks like.......but this one fits our famous ceramic SM-stones. Full Aluminum and stainless. :cool:

Tomas

[FLYcrash]

Get a set of diamond sharpening tools (I have four of the DMT Dia-Sharp grits), potentially a loupe to inspect the progress and angle of your sharpening work, and sharpening will be straightforward even for the exotic steels.

I've gotten good results with these tools on my CPM-S90V Mule. From what I've heard (and what I've seen of that knife), S90V is quite a wear-resistant steel up there with ZDP and D2.

[chuck_roxas45]

I've gotten good results with these tools on my CPM-S90V Mule. From what I've heard (and what I've seen of that knife), S90V is quite a wear-resistant steel up there with ZDP and D2.

From what I hear, even more so than ZDP and D2.

[jackknifeh]

...all the credits goes to my father in law... I know, it looks like.......but this one fits our famous ceramic SM-stones. Full Aluminum and stainless. :cool:

Tomas

I have an Edge Pro sharpener. Have you ever seen one? You have what looks like a home made version of it. Execelent work.

Jack

[jackknifeh]

From what I hear, even more so than ZDP and D2.

AG Russell's steel chart has CPM-S90V at 56-58 Rc. That doesn't sound right. I've always heard it is very hard. Hard enough that some knife makers don't like to work with it. Maybe what I've heard was wrong.

Jack