Ball Bearing Lock

[big70tom]

O.K. being new to your world, and coming from where all things are measured against the AXIS lock........... how well does this Ball Bearing system work?

[big70tom]

anyone?

[c.joe]

You can find a little information about it here on this link.

http://spyderco.com/edge-u-cation/knifeanatomy.php

Ball Bearing Lock (BB) A patented compressive lock, wedging a stainless steel ball bearing between a fixed anvil and the blade tang. The ball is also utilized to detent the blade into the closed position.

[Samwise]

(Manix2 owner here.)

I find it to be a great system. It locks up like a freakin' bank vault, the handle retention is perfect (not gonna come open by itself but unnoticeable when you go to open it), the action is buttery smooth, and the blade absolutely flies open with a decent thumb flick. It also allows for the same cool wrist-flick openings/closings like the AXIS.

The only downside is that it's kinda stiff and hard to close one-handed, unless you do the wrist-flick closing.

[RyanA]

Conceptually the BBL is very similar to the Axis. I believe that the BBL is the better executed of the two. Some examples: a coil spring versus the "omega" springs, full length liners versus partial, and a one piece titanium backspacer/square stop-pin versus no backspacer and round stop-pin.

[JNewell]

The 70,000' summary is that instead of a transverse bar the ball lock uses a ball. The Axis lockbar uses two omega-shaped wire springs which are subject to failure. The ball lock uses a single coil spring which is unlikely to fail and would almost certainly work even if it did. The Axis lock can be, but is not always, easier to use with wet/cold/etc. fingers. (I have a few Axis knives in which the bar is essentially flush with the handles, which does not make for easy use.) Assuming no spring failure, the Axis lock may be stronger because lock failure would require either shearing the lockbar or blowing it out of the liners. I've probably left points out. This discussion usually leads to heat rather than light.

[v8r]

It has worked very well for me, probably one of my favorites. :)

[kbuzbee]

BBL (as found in the D'Allara and Phoenix) - absolutely my favorite lock of all time. Not just for the solid lock up but for the smoothness of operation ( as mentioned above).

Distinction must be made withe the caged version ( CBBL) found in the Manix 2 and P'kal. I like the CBBL almost as well but it is not quite as smooth to unlock

Ken

[dj moonbat]

It's kind of strange to me that the Axis lock has the mindshare that it does. The (C)BBL, SOG's Arc Lock, the Bolt Action Lock, and probably a couple others, all work on pretty much the same principle. It seems to me that any lock that works by wedging a piece of metal in there between the stop pin and tang is going to be really strong.

The main advantage of the Axis over the (C)BBL seems to be that it can fit into a smaller knife.

[bh49]

BBL (as found in the D'Allara and Phoenix) - absolutely my favorite lock of all time. Not just for the solid lock up but for the smoothness of operation ( as mentioned above).

Distinction must be made withe the caged version ( CBBL) found in the Manix 2 and P'kal. I like the CBBL almost as well but it is not quite as smooth to unlock

Ken

I have few knives with BBL and like it a lot. I own Blue Manix and handle few or regular production and found CBBL difficult to operate with one hand.

[ChapmanPreferred]

Interesting discussion.

[Blerv]

Can you say "can of worms"?

All good, just different. My unfortunate problem is that I can't get into BM knives which is a personal preference rather than a slam on their company. For that reason I'm stuck with all the amazing locks that Spyderco makes.

To this day I can't pinpoint a lock I prefer as the "best" (while the backlock is probably my least favorite) and since none have failed me I just keep buying more knives.

Oh drats. :p

[JNewell]

Can of worms, for sure. Likely to lead to a discussion of peanut butter, too?, but so far very civil! :D :spyder:

The observation about the CBL and knife size is (I am not Eric or Sal) correct. The BBL works in smaller knives but has, ehm, different ergonomics.

To the point about the locks below working on pretty much the same principle, I'd add the compression lock (believe it or not). Why? Because it also puts a piece of metal between the blade tang and the stop pin and is going to be defeated only by either crushing the tab (over-compression ) or by either shearing the stop pin or blowing it out of the liners. The principal disadvantage of the CL in my opinion is that it is (for me, YMMV) the least ambi-friendly lock I've run across.

I like the CBL and BBL a lot. I have come this close >||< to buying a Polliwog (which is BBL) just so I can fiddle with the lock and admire its strength and ingenuity.

It's kind of strange to me that the Axis lock has the mindshare that it does. The (C)BBL, SOG's Arc Lock, the Bolt Action Lock, and probably a couple others, all work on pretty much the same principle. It seems to me that any lock that works by wedging a piece of metal in there between the stop pin and tang is going to be really strong.

The main advantage of the Axis over the (C)BBL seems to be that it can fit into a smaller knife.

[The Mentaculous]

From what I understand, the CBBL, Compression lock and thick lockbacks like in the Chinook or Manix are pretty comparable in strength to the axis lock.

In my opinion, short of abusing them, all these locks should hold up to any normal activity

[Blerv]

I do think locks like the Axis and Arc lock require less pressure to unlock based on the spring tension and design. This makes for easy index finger or thumb disengagement.

The CBBL or BBL are very robust but use seemingly larger springs in a direct fashion. For this reason they can be harder to unlock but many people find this simplicity refreshing and comforting.

I have been to multiple knife stores. The first thing the sales staff does when showing you an Axis lock is hold back the lock and flick it back and forth rapidly like a child. While impressing for dim wits and a great way to get your knife taken away by an officer...I don't know a situation where this would come in handy. I can close or open a Manix2 with one hand which has a very "positive" lock. It just takes more effort than changing the channels on the TV.

Can of worms, for sure. Likely to lead to a discussion of peanut butter, too?, but so far very civil! :D :spyder:

The observation about the CBL and knife size is (I am not Eric or Sal) correct. The BBL works in smaller knives but has, ehm, different ergonomics.

To the point about the locks below working on pretty much the same principle, I'd add the compression lock (believe it or not). Why? Because it also puts a piece of metal between the blade tang and the stop pin and is going to be defeated only by either crushing the tab (over-compression ) or by either shearing the stop pin or blowing it out of the liners. The principal disadvantage of the CL in my opinion is that it is (for me, YMMV) the least ambi-friendly lock I've run across.

I like the CBL and BBL a lot. I have come this close >||< to buying a Polliwog (which is BBL) just so I can fiddle with the lock and admire its strength and ingenuity.

Completely agreed. Putting steel between the closing process essentially throws a "wrench in the gears". While it *can* be beat it takes extreme forces and abuse that merely human hands are not capable of achieving (mechanical shock, vice/breaker bar, etc). Of course, this assumes the lock isn't full of mud or comprised via abuse.

From what I understand, the CBBL, Compression lock and thick lockbacks like in the Chinook or Manix are pretty comparable in strength to the axis lock.

In my opinion, short of abusing them, all these locks should hold up to any normal activity

Very true. There is strong and there is STRONG. I trust my fingers to a boring lockback Delica that's been beat to ****. I wouldn't think twice about a CBBL, Compression Lock, Axis, etc.

[dj moonbat]

The CBBL or BBL are very robust but use seemingly larger springs in a direct fashion. For this reason they can be harder to unlock but many people find this simplicity refreshing and comforting.

This is something I've been curious about: is this heavy spring pressure a requirement? Could the (C)BBL be made to work with a less robust spring? The spring, after all, doesn't seem to have any role in the efficacy of the lock once it's engaged.

[JNewell]

This is something I've been curious about: is this heavy spring pressure a requirement? Could the (C)BBL be made to work with a less robust spring? The spring, after all, doesn't seem to have any role in the efficacy of the lock once it's engaged.

Yes, no, and wrong. :) There was a thread a while back that included the suggestion that people snip the spring to reduce unlock pressure. IIRC, Sal specifically said that would compromise the lockup.

[shimage]

This is something I've been curious about: is this heavy spring pressure a requirement? Could the (C)BBL be made to work with a less robust spring? The spring, after all, doesn't seem to have any role in the efficacy of the lock once it's engaged.

Yes, no, and wrong. :) There was a thread a while back that included the suggestion that people snip the spring to reduce unlock pressure. IIRC, Sal specifically said that would compromise the lockup.

Cutting the spring shorter would actually stiffen it]I don't have the XHP, but I do have a couple of the S90V sprint. The lock is harder to release than the regular ball lock, and you can blame that on me. I was probably the loudest whiner about the lack of closed retention on the tip-up only ball lock knives. The caged ball lock of the Manix 2 uses stronger springs and actually has enough closed retention to make me comfortable with the tip-up carry (I still prefer tip down). The end result is a lock that is a little harder to release.[/QUOTE]

[dj moonbat]

I can certainly see how shortening the spring -- which was, after all, designed to be a certain length -- would "compromise lockup." I do not see how it follows logically that a weaker spring would similarly compromise lockup.

[JNewell]

Cutting the spring shorter would actually stiffen it; if the force required to release the lock were reduced, then that would be because the equilibrium point of the spring were shifted back. Snipping off the end of the spring would also alter the way it engages with either the cage or the backspacer, depending on how you oriented the spring. These all seem to me like horrible things to do to a lock, but not because a weaker spring couldn't be used. You'd just need to find one that fit right. Buy a lot of different clicky pens, maybe ... Also, here is a quote from yablanowitz I found on edcforums:

Yep, I didn't say it would make the spring less stiff, I said it would reduce the unlock pressure, which is correct. Clipping the stock spring will reduce the pressure it applies to the cage and ball.

Odds are high that if Eric, Sal & co. thought a weaker spring would work, they would have used it.

Whatever else the huge kerfuffle about the Manix 2 proved, it did demonstrate that the design is very sensitive to a number of variables related to lock engagement. Improving the lock's performance by trial and error doesn't seem like a great idea? I've grown attached to my fingers, and want to keep it that way.