Gravity knife?

[jackknifeh]

What qualifies a knife as a gravity knife? I have one that I can open by holding the knife horizontal with the blade down and by pushing the knife down and stopping as abruptly as I can the blade will open and lock without me touching the blade at all. It won't open just by gravity. I was on the phone with the manufacturer today and they referred to it as a type of gravity knife. It wasn't until later that I remebered that this is one type of knife that may be considered illegal at least in some places. Does anyone know if this is true or not?

Jack

[2cha]

What qualifies a knife as a gravity knife? I have one that I can open by holding the knife horizontal with the blade down and by pushing the knife down and stopping as abruptly as I can the blade will open and lock without me touching the blade at all. It won't open just by gravity. I was on the phone with the manufacturer today and they referred to it as a type of gravity knife. It wasn't until later that I remebered that this is one type of knife that may be considered illegal at least in some places. Does anyone know if this is true or not?

Jack

Good question. It will vary jurisdiction by jurisdiction and probably even within jurisdictions. In NYC, apparently anything that can be opened with one hand is a gravity knife. Apparently, if shooting for headlines, dictionaries can get tossed out the window. I'd ask a local cop or even try to get info from local district attorney.

[The Deacon]

The original meaning was a knife that was basically an auto without the spring. You held the knife a certain way, which varied depending on whether it was an "out the front" or more conventional opener, pressed a button, gravity caused the blade to drop or swing open and releasing the button caused it to lock open. You could also make them open in other positions by substituting centrifugal force, in the form of a flick of the wrist, for gravity. Over the years, that definition, has been expanded in various ways. Most of those expand it to include any knife that can be made to open by inertia, even if it requires extreme effort and creativity to do so.

We would argue that those expansions are unfair. Those who believe such laws to be vital to public safety would argue that expansions have merely preserved the intent of the law by allowing the definitions to keep pace with technology. The problem with that is the laws against automatics and gravity knives do not, and have not ever, served any useful public purpose. They are not only not vital to public safety, they do absolutely nothing to enhance it.

[ChrisR]

Paul has it pretty spot-on :) I recently had good cause to examine the UK laws very closely with regard to the seizure of a UKPK FRN as a gravity knife. This seemed obviously wrong but I thought I would prove it.

Basically, over here to qualify as a gravity knife the blade must be open-able using gravity or centrifugal force and must then lock in the open position:

"(b) any knife which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force and which, when released, is locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other device, sometimes known as a “gravity knife”,"

A UKPK FRN has a very soft back-spring so someone with strong wrists could flick it open ... but the blade does not lock open. This seemed obvious but if you take a more mischievous reading of that law you can see that the UKPK has a spring and that the blade has a notch to stop it flopping about. So, could this be termed a "lock"? Not by any normal sense of the word but you know how lawyers can create doubt from any ambiguity.

So I went on to find the legal definition of a lock with regards to knives. This (ironically) comes in an appeal case where a man's appeal was denied because the judges maintained that his knife locked and therefore was equivalent to a fixed blade knife - but in doing that they defined what a lock was. Basically it boils down to the fact that a non-locking knife must be "readily foldable at all times by nothing more than the action of closing the blade" and the user must not have to release any button or device prior to that. The UKPK passes this definition with flying colours.

So ... that is how UK law applies to gravity knives. :)

[kingdomgone]

These gravity laws scare the **** out of me. With freshly oiled pivots I can open almost every one of my Spyders with no blade contact and a quick wrist flick pretty easily. Although this isn't the force of gravity alone, and these knives weren't designed to be opened through inertia, most of these laws seem to encompass this opening. I don't want to tighten my pivots so much that I need two hands to open the blades but it seems anything short of that could land me in trouble. My Zowada is the most notorious for doing this. If I even look at it the wrong way the blade will come flying out and lock open.

[jackknifeh]

These gravity laws scare the **** out of me. With freshly oiled pivots I can open almost every one of my Spyders with no blade contact and a quick wrist flick pretty easily. Although this isn't the force of gravity alone, and these knives weren't designed to be opened through inertia, most of these laws seem to encompass this opening. I don't want to tighten my pivots so much that I need two hands to open the blades but it seems anything short of that could land me in trouble. My Zowada is the most notorious for doing this. If I even look at it the wrong way the blade will come flying out and lock open.

The laws bother me as well. Does anyone know the penalty for carrying an "illegal" knife? Is it just confiscated? Could you be arrested?

No matter what the penalty, if a police officer decided to persue the issue it would be at least a pain in the butt. If all that happened was your knife got confiscated you would need to deal with getting it back and I've got a feeling a lot of these instances happen when someone is away from home and not aware of the local laws. Getting a knife back when taken from you in another state would be even a bigger pain. What if you had to go to court?

Every time the subject of illegal knives comes up I just get upset because IMO the whole issue is for the most part stupid. Knives shouldn't be illegal but if you use a knife in a crime I feel the maximum sentence should be given. Same with guns. Some feel that if you eliminate weapons you will at least reduce crime. Talk about naive. The criminals will get the weapons and the honest people won't.

Jack

[ChrisR]

I think the main problem here in the UK is that there has been a shift in the way that LEOs have been advised in light of the fact that many work to crime detection quotas and that the media has hyped-up knife crime and exaggerated/distorted the problems.

My feeling is that in the past the police had far more leeway and they would only charge someone with having an illegal knife if they already suspected that this person was up to no good and was causing trouble ... the knife type would be secondary to the fact that the guy was doing something seriously illegal. But now I think LEOs are encouraged to detect as many crimes as they can, which means examining everything they see with a different attitude - reporting every single infraction of the laws.

Some folding knives can be flicked open ... but does that make any problems for society? I'd say absolutely not and in the past most LEOs would have (at most) given a carrier nothing more than a bit of advice not to carry it in public, as long as the carrier seemed like a law-abiding person and had given the LEO no reason to suspect that they were about to do anything illegal.

I know we have a lot of excellent US LEOs here and I'm sure they can cast a better light on how they have been advised to police knife carry ... I'd be especially interested to hear from any who work in NYC because here I think there has been a huge shift in the city's attitude to knife carry.

[2cha]

These gravity laws scare the **** out of me. With freshly oiled pivots I can open almost every one of my Spyders with no blade contact and a quick wrist flick pretty easily. Although this isn't the force of gravity alone, and these knives weren't designed to be opened through inertia, most of these laws seem to encompass this opening. I don't want to tighten my pivots so much that I need two hands to open the blades but it seems anything short of that could land me in trouble. My Zowada is the most notorious for doing this. If I even look at it the wrong way the blade will come flying out and lock open.

Nothing has changed in how the laws are written, or even, as far as I can tell, in how the law interpreting bodies--courts--interpret the gravity knife laws--the only thing that has changed is how the DA's office in NYC interprets the laws. Because the businesses with the cash to legally challenge the DAs unilateral and improper interpretation of the law put their tail between their legs and ran-- :mad: HOME DEPOT :mad: --the DA's interpretation stands for the mean time.

[The Deacon]

Understand that New York City is an anomaly. As a general rule, if you're ever accused of carrying a gravity knife pretty much anywhere else in the USA, one of three conditions has been met.

1. You were actually carrying an honest-to-betsy gravity knife. You can rail against the unfairness and absurdity of the law, but until it gets changed, you're guilty.

2. You were caught committing a reasonably serious crime, like breaking and entering or auto theft. Lo and behold, the Buck 110 in your pocket suddenly becomes a gravity knife! The weapons charge now serves as a bargaining chip when the DA and your lawyer play "let's make a deal". You may even get lucky, and be allowed to cop to that, even though it's totally bogus.

3. You decided that acting like a total ******* in the presence of a police officer was a good idea and Mr. Policeman decided the Buck 110 in your pocket was a gravity knife. What happens next is uncertain. Said officer may just confiscate the knife or he may decide to let you cool your jets for a while in a cell, until someone higher up the food chain decides it really wasn't a gravity knife.

Rarely, very rarely, it will be something else.

[On Edge]

" ... If I even look at it the wrong way the blade will come flying out and lock open."

:eek:

[On Edge]

Understand that New York City is an anomaly. As a general rule, if you're ever accused of carrying a gravity knife pretty much anywhere else in the USA, one of three conditions has been met.

1. You were actually carrying an honest-to-betsy gravity knife. You can rail against the unfairness and absurdity of the law, but until it gets changed, you're guilty.

2. You were caught committing a reasonably serious crime, like breaking and entering or auto theft. Lo and behold, the Buck 110 in your pocket suddenly becomes a gravity knife! The weapons charge now serves as a bargaining chip when the DA and your lawyer play "let's make a deal". You may even get lucky, and be allowed to cop to that, even though it's totally bogus.

3. You decided that acting like a total ******* in the presence of a police officer was a good idea and Mr. Policeman decided the Buck 110 in your pocket was a gravity knife. What happens next is uncertain. Said officer may just confiscate the knife or he may decide to let you cool your jets for a while in a cell, until someone higher up the food chain decides it really wasn't a gravity knife.

Rarely, very rarely, it will be something else.

Excellent capture.

I believe The Deacon has summed up the impact of this area of concern pretty well right there.

~ Edge

[ChrisR]

I believe The Deacon has summed up the impact of this area of concern pretty well right there.

Yes - that's how I would have expected the law to work here in the UK too - maybe 5-10 years ago. Now it's a bit different and things can be 'made' into gravity knives and the only explanation I have is that some UK LEOs are keen to get their crime resolution stats up and if they find a knife and they can make the owner believe it is illegal and admit to the 'crime' they can get a crime+solve in one easy action.

[MCM]

And I always thought a gravity knife was OTF?
(Out the front)
Like the German Gravity knife...............

I guess if you stare at a law long enough, you can turn it into whatever you want.

Live and learn........

[The Deacon]

And I always thought a gravity knife was OTF?
(Out the front)
Like the German Gravity knife...............

I guess if you stare at a law long enough, you can turn it into whatever you want.

Live and learn........

Most are, but I've been told there are some conventional openers as well. Then you have butterfly knives which, rightly or wrongly, have been classified as gravity knives in a number of states ever since these silly laws were enacted fifty odd years ago.

[2edgesword]

The laws bother me as well. Does anyone know the penalty for carrying an "illegal" knife? Is it just confiscated? Could you be arrested?

Yes, you can be arrested for carrying an "illegal" knife and in NYC just about any folding knife that can be opened with one hand falls under the "illegal" classification according to the Manhattan DA. And in NYS if you get arrested you can kiss your CCW goodbye.

Now I would hope that police officers would use the type of discretion mentioned by The Deacon. But do you really want to put at risk your clean criminal record, your 2nd Amendment rights and thousands of dollars hoping that that type of discretion will be used if you happen to be in Manhattan on one of those days when the NYPD or TSA is doing random checks at various subway stations.

Citizens should not have to have this Sword of Damocles hanging over their head for carrying a knife based on the ridiculous idea that it is a risk to public safety.

[The Deacon]

Now I would hope that police officers would use the type of discretion mentioned by The Deacon. But do you really want to put at risk your clean criminal record, your 2nd Amendment rights and thousands of dollars hoping that that type of discretion will be used if you happen to be in Manhattan on one of those days when the NYPD or TSA is doing random checks at various subway stations.

Which is why I specifically excluded NYC when making those observations.

FWIW, as much as I believe in the 2nd Amendment, I do not consider the right to carry a tool which, in my nearly sixty years of carrying one on a daily basis, has proved useful on well over half those days, to be covered by it.

[2edgesword]

Which is why I specifically excluded NYC when making those observations.

FWIW, as much as I believe in the 2nd Amendment, I do not consider the right to carry a tool which, in my nearly sixty years of carrying one on a daily basis, has proved useful on well over half those days, to be covered by it.

My concern is that NYC typically leads the state when it comes to draconian interpretations of the law and there is no guarantee that residents outside of NYC will get a forewarning if policy in other counties is revised to mirror the NYC interpretation.

With respect to the 2nd Amendment, get arrested for any reason in NYS (even a bogus weapons charge for having a Spyderco Delica) and for those that have a NYS pistol license you can kiss your 2nd Amendment right to own a handgun goodbye.

[jackknifeh]

Is NYC the only place in the country with such strict laws and the enforcement of these laws? For instance I live in a small town and a lot of hunging and fishing enthusiasts live here. You can go into any store and see all kinds of knives on people's belts. I called the police dept. once and at least three people in their office didn't even know what an illegal blade length was. One said as long as you don't run around stabbing people they don't even think about it.

How does the Mayor/DA justify their stand on this issue? I can't help but think there may be other influences than the safety of law abiding citizens. I can't think of what they may be but if it was only an attempt to lower crime, how is that going?

I don't follow the laws very closely, in fact I wasn't aware of NYC being more strict than other places. I heard that on this forum so my knowledge is only as accurate as the info passed about this on this forum. So my question is are they the only place?

Jack

[ChrisR]

It's the same old story - if you live in a region where hunting, fishing and outdoor pursuits are a matter of everyday life ... and consequently where knives and guns are a commonplace tool ... then you think it is normal and would be shocked if anyone tried to get rid of them. But the flipside is that in a city people hardly ever see a knife outside the kitchen and knives/guns are associated with shootings, police & the military. So when an ambitious politician wants to look tough on crime without offending too many people he chooses a soft target that sounds plausible to his target audience ... ie. he restricts the carry of knives.

The reason for doing it is very simplistic ... but it appeals to shallow-thinking voters who just listen to the sound bytes and don't bother to think about people who might not be identical to themselves. In places like NYC knife/gun rights issues are relatively unimportant to most people - being replaced instead by the worries of violent crime (usually fed-on and hyped up by the media) so in the end the minority looses out, as usual.

[2edgesword]

Is NYC the only place in the country with such strict laws and the enforcement of these laws?

No.

The whole state of NY as well as anyone living in California, Connecticut, New Jersey, Tennessee and Washington (states which prohibit gravity knives) are at risk. If any of these states decides to broadly interpret the meaning of gravity knife in the same way as it has been interpreted in NYC then technically a large number of your favorite pocket knives would be illegal in these states.

The DA in Manhattan has decided that the definition of a gravity knife is any knife that can be opened via the application of centrifugal force, a flick of the wrist. My guess is tens of thousands of knives with the potential to be opened in this way have been sold in NYS over the years. I would also guess that they are owned by tens of thousands of otherwise law abiding citizens. These citizens are now at risk of losing their property and rights at the whim of the next DA or police officer in any county that decides to accept the NYC definition of a gravity knife.