New Australian Knife Laws

[feeny]

Police in Victoria, Australia, now have three new powers:

1. a $1000 on the spot fine ($2000 if it is in a licensed venue) for anyone carrying a knife without lawful excuse.
This power is 'reverse onus' meaning the offender is deemed to be guilty until proven innocent

2. the ability to conduct both planned and random searches of all persons in designated public areas - such as train stations, CBD areas, licensed premises etc.

3. It is completely illegal for any person under the age of 18 to purchase a knife.

These laws are completely reactionary, as knife crime has reduced 25% or so over the past decade... however there is a perception that the age of people committing knife related offences is reducing - and the severity of the attacks is increasing.

I think these laws could have been introduced with a bit more focus and thinking... Im all for searching people who are drunk, and if weapons are found on them, without lawful reason, charging and fining them - EG a 19 year old guy walking the streets at night drunk and rowdy carrying a blade on him after a night out should be discouraged ... I think the same effect could have been achieved by introducing laws with a focus on people under the influence of drugs and alcohol - as 99% of both perpetrators and victims in the latest spate of attacks are all drunk or drugged according to hospital reports.

Anyway, this is what its come to down under. I will not EDC outside my home or office - lawful excuse or not... notable exceptions: Picnics, camping, fishing, gardening, slicing up packaging by the dumpsters etc - Id like to say foodstuffs - e.g. peeling my orange at lunch time whilst people watching .. but I suspect I'd get fined very quickly if I used any spydie for this... or at least risk getting it confiscated. Not worth it.

More details here:
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/1000- ... utostart=1

[ozspyder]

Thanks for the post feeny.

I was thinking this was going to happen shortly considering the huge spate of violent knife crime here in Oz over the last few weeks. I haven't heard of this many happening in Oz since...well since NEVER ?!

I had a gut feeling something was coming. And now the laws are getting more stringent than they ever were. I think they might go for otugher laws all over Oz pretty soon actually. No liberties here in the great brown land downunder

[skatenut]

Sorry to hear that, sounds worse than Germany!
I really look forward to moving to Austria, where they don't have stringent anti-knife legislation yet (!).

cheer up, mates! However, it's bound to get worse! :mad:

[feeny]

I dont think the knife crime is more or less than ever before - figures tabled in parliament show it to be 25% lower than a decade ago after all!

The media however has done its job - and now the public are walking in fear of stabbings on our streets .. I still hold that we should be policing people who are drunk or drugged and carrying or operating controlled items such as weapons, cars, heavy machinery etc... this seems to be where the perpetrators operate.

I dont at all agree with the need or effectiveness of such a wide net - I think it will be abused and that our society is worse off for it.

[2cha]

Police in Victoria, Australia, now have three new powers:

2. the ability to conduct both planned and random searches of all persons in designated public areas - such as train stations, CBD areas, licensed premises etc.

]

I don't even know what to say about this,... Frightening.

To give what in the US is the Executive Branch so much power goes against everything I believe in. Police in the US--though it varies by state or even specific jurisdiction (States can have broader protections, and many do, than provided by the Federal Constitution, but can't guarantee less)--can have almost such search powers. The move here is not so blatant--sadly, because blatant laws are often easier to fight against. Instead personal privacy is left open to invasion by what is called "stop and frisk," where a police officer can stop a person on the street, question him or her, and perform a frisk based solely upon the reasonable suspicion that that person has or is about to engage in criminal activity. So long as an officer is able to string together some facts with inferences that are objectively reasonable, the search is legit, and any fruits of the search can lead to arrest and prosecution. The problem here is that such reasoning, unlike with warrants, is totally post hoc, with no "testing" by a supposedly objective party (judge) beforehand. I assume that most LEOs don't go out of their way to abuse this power--the problem for me is that the power allows the potential for the growth of a police state. I think back to the Joe McCarthy and the criminalization of thought--and, more recently, to the wildly expansive definitions of terrorism--and I am scared. And this brings me full circle--what scares me more than terrorism is the subversion of the ideals of freedom of life, liberty and property in favor of broad and unfettered police powers--which apparently you now have in Victoria.

[D1omedes]

I understand Australia's concern and desire to stop knife-related violence but I think this goes a bit too far. Giving police the right for complete "random" searches smacks of a police state. What happened to probable cause?

[Sequimite]

I watched the video and read the article and am shocked. They did not mention any exceptions.

I know nothing about Australia's constitution but don't see how it's even possible to have a law making one guilty until proven innocent. It's pretty hard to prove that you intended to use the knife for a legal purpose.

Even with the sometimes abusive traffic laws in the US, you can demand a trial that forces the police to try to prove your guilt.

[2cha]

Giving police the right for complete "random" searches smacks of a police state. What happened to probable cause?

No probable cause required here in the good ole USA either--

[skatenut]

Police in Victoria, Australia, now have three new powers:

1. a $1000 on the spot fine ($2000 if it is in a licensed venue) for anyone carrying a knife without lawful excuse.
This power is 'reverse onus' meaning the offender is deemed to be guilty until proven innocent

how does that work in a democracy? I thought it was "in dubio pro reo", in doubt for the accused or the benefit of the doubt, and an offender isn't even accused yet. Let's just make it guilty from birth, that simplifies things enormously!

rant off, my apologies!

[dsmegst]

How far is this going to go? I'm saddened for our friends down under. The Bushcraft tradition should be thriving in Australia, not being stamped out.

[Joshua J.]

I just hope the SAK sticks as the universal travelers knife.
Another good spot for a Leatherman as well (so much utility potential at least one of the uses would be lawful).

[kbuzbee]

I think these laws could have been introduced with a bit more focus and thinking... Im all for searching people who are drunk, and if weapons are found on them, without lawful reason, charging and fining them - EG a 19 year old guy walking the streets at night drunk and rowdy carrying a blade on him after a night out should be discouraged ... I think the same effect could have been achieved by introducing laws with a focus on people under the influence of drugs and alcohol - as 99% of both perpetrators and victims in the latest spate of attacks are all drunk or drugged according to hospital reports.

To me (no offense intended, feeny!) I think this shows how perceptions can be shaped to achieve goals - when those shaped perceptions lack basic common sense.

This is just me but I believe in stiff punishment for people who commit crimes. If you use a gun or knife to assist in the commission of that crime, the penalties should be even more severe. But possession of a knife or gun should not be a crime in and of itself. Guns and knives are tools. Sometimes they are used as weapons and sometimes that use is criminal. The old saying that guns don't kill people, people kill people is spot on. There's a great Tee Shirt I saw once that said "If guns kill people, then spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat" etc.

This abdication of personal responsibility is a horrible trend in our society. We are told we can control crime by eliminating the tools of crime. A fundamental error in logic we are all being subjected to these days.

I take personal exception to your example of a drunk 19 year old carrying a knife. I was, in days gone by, that 19 year old. I might have, on occasion, consumed one too many adult beverages. And I always had a knife on my person. But I never intended to (or did) use that knife to commit an act of violence. I did on several occasions find productive uses for that knife, however.

People who want to commit an act of violence will find a way. You'd have to outlaw pipes, bats, shovels, picks, 2x4s, cast iron frying pans etc etc etc to follow this anti-knife logic. Make the penalties for committing armed violence stiff enough that people (most people) will avoid it and your problem is more succinctly addressed, without burdening the law abiding citizen who simply wants to peel his apple - IMO.

Ken

[cckw]

As a student of history these types of laws are even worse then they appear. Government is just like fire. Something that is needed, but if you let it get out of your control it is destructive. I challenge anyone you show a historical example of an encroaching government not becoming oppressive.

[markg]

The quickest way to stop knife crime is to give people guns...

Kidding aside.

I think folks can take a lesson from the American experience in regards to this issue.

You must be proactive to retain liberties. In the United States we have had folks who fought against gun laws in an organized fashion for years, and became a powerful political force. I maybe speaking out of turn, but do many of you in other countries have the same thing? If not why not start it.

Gun laws in the United States are becoming more and more liberal. I suspect there will be a day "the worm will turn," however the reason this is happening is that there was a subtle shift in police. We went from being reactive to proactive.

As the CCW movement gained force, the reality was, the "anti-gun" factions now were on the defensive. Instead of reacting to gun control legislation, we now were pushing our own legislation. Conceptual shift, and a big one.

Now, not all of you are gun owners or supporters, but I used this as an example.

Remember last year when US Customs was going to enact a ruling change that would make assisted openers illegal to import. We organized and Knife Rights and others fought against it. Did you see heads spin when the NRA took up the cause. A redefining of The Switchblade Act happened... it happened, who would have thought that? Passed by Congress and signed by a Democratic President to boot.

Since then, many of the same people have now gone the offensive, and are pushing "pro-knife" laws in many states.

Politicians understand one two things. Money and job security (more money).

If you don't like the laws, do something about them. Organize, lobby, educate. If not things will never get better and only worse.

[Pete2s]

I don't even know what to say about this,... Frightening.

To give what in the US is the Executive Branch so much power goes against everything I believe in. Police in the US--though it varies by state or even specific jurisdiction (States can have broader protections, and many do, than provided by the Federal Constitution, but can't guarantee less)--can have almost such search powers. The move here is not so blatant--sadly, because blatant laws are often easier to fight against. Instead personal privacy is left open to invasion by what is called "stop and frisk," where a police officer can stop a person on the street, question him or her, and perform a frisk based solely upon the reasonable suspicion that that person has or is about to engage in criminal activity. So long as an officer is able to string together some facts with inferences that are objectively reasonable, the search is legit, and any fruits of the search can lead to arrest and prosecution. The problem here is that such reasoning, unlike with warrants, is totally post hoc, with no "testing" by a supposedly objective party (judge) beforehand. I assume that most LEOs don't go out of their way to abuse this power--the problem for me is that the power allows the potential for the growth of a police state. I think back to the Joe McCarthy and the criminalization of thought--and, more recently, to the wildly expansive definitions of terrorism--and I am scared. And this brings me full circle--what scares me more than terrorism is the subversion of the ideals of freedom of life, liberty and property in favor of broad and unfettered police powers--which apparently you now have in Victoria.

This is a reasonable law. To paraphrase, don't carry an illegal knife, commit a crime, and be near a reasonable officer that strings together objectively reasonable inferences that you may have been involved in a crime and needs to feel the outside of your clothing for weapons for his own safety, thus finding your illegal knife.

[ozspyder]

Sadly or not, Australia doesn't have the constitutional rights to bear arms to protect oneself or their property. Nor does Australia have the history of gun or knife carrying culture.

Whilst 99% or ANY population will tend to obey the law (and general human decency for that matter), it is the 1% of rebels and miscreants that really make life problematic by stripping away the freedoms enjoyed by the other 99%

Poliicians and lawmakers/ enforcers if not seen to be doing anything will thus be voted out of power and out of their salaried and cushioned bubble they call their job, and thus also losing all their social and financial priviledges that come with that. So the reaction would be to go with what the media always suggests which are usually for blanket bans, fines, and legal proceedings culminating in imprisonment and public lynchings and hangings.

Sad to say but I don't think that the situation here will be any different from any other country in the near future where knife bans will IMHO be the rule rather than the exception. Globally the fear of others doing bad things to you in times of 'terror' makes people a bit more aware of the bad things in life rather than the good ones.

Australia being a Commonwealth country and with the history of British law as precedent will have that legacy and most likely follow suit with what is happening in the UK regarding knife and other laws.

It's a pity most people can't see that a pocket knife (yes, I don't mean a SD or MBC knife) can be a great tool. I use one everyday on multiple occasions to save time and my fingernails :p Self Defense arguments aside the humble pocket knife/ gents knife/ SAK should not be illegal..... but in between the black and the white, there are SO MANY shades of grey. Big Brother is obliged to take on the task of watching over you and adjudicating (prematurely in this case) your innocence or lack of. This to the point of a loss of basic freedoms.

[O,just,O]

Come & beat my skull in with a truncheon, confiscate all my knifes & drag me off to jail.
While this is not going to happen (yet) because our coppers are not nazi brown shirts, the erosion of rights & especially the presumtion of innocent until proven guilty being turned on it's head are bad bad precedences.
The collector can get a permit for otherwise illegal stuff, but this & importation of one handers & the like is where they will strike next I fear.
In AUST we have mobs & mobs of laws government is over legislating as a cheap control measure but don't back it up with policing. Only when something goes wrong & the insurance giant squeels do they trot out the law. Don't ask or go looking for trouble & it is unlikely to find you. If it does there is always the oppressed minority card to play. Trumps all.

[feeny]

Well, I read the text of the act - which does have exceptions for "lawful excuse" - otherwise every pub serving steak would be a revenue delight for the local police force! (Unless we blanket ban cutlery).

What gets me is the pure reactionary response - the 'fire ready aim' of it all. We can and should do better. The background to this is that Melbourne (city of about 4m people) let its liquor licensing run amok - I believe that some 50 new venues were being permitted per week over a 10 year period! Clever hey... and some of them are totally *wrong* - being open 24 hours / day with licenses for up to 10,000 people.. right in the middle of the CBD.... so we get what we sow - and opening such establishments is a beacon for trouble over time - and it's come home to roost.

Placing visible police checkpoints out the front of these venues, arresting people for being drunk and disorderly - and importantly - using the existing laws against the plethora of licensed venues - by fining the ones that serve alcohol to people already intoxicated would be far more effective and civilised in my view.

Unfortunately these laws will not change in a hurry - I can only see them getting worse. Our media recently dragged a collectible blade store over hot coals - one would have sworn after reading the article that this vendor was responsible for arming the youth of Melbourne and inciting them to violence! These people sell swords... number of sword attacks? 0.... number of glass attacks, steak/kitchen knives 90% +

I shall carry my trusty pen whilst I still have the right...

I do believe that drugs and alcohol are the root cause here. it is borne out in the evidence of both victims and perpetrators - 99% of whom are intoxicated when caught or admitted to hospital.

The onus of proof being reversed here means guilty until proven innocent - that means that the police have the right to issue a fine on the spot - and it is then up to the 'offender' to submit their reasons for having a blade. I expect that our courts will deal with such matters appropriately. If I were caught slicing up boxes in the street out the front of my building - it would take an exceptional policeman to issue me such a fine - and then Im sure the courts would throw the matter out. On the other hand, if I did so and then left the knife clipped and went out for a night of raucousness to be randomly searched later and have the tool detected, I may be in an entirely different heap of doggy-do.

[2cha]

This is a reasonable law. To paraphrase, don't carry an illegal knife, commit a crime, and be near a reasonable officer that strings together objectively reasonable inferences that you may have been involved in a crime and needs to feel the outside of your clothing for weapons for his own safety, thus finding your illegal knife.

First, it's where the officer is unreasonable, or where the executive branch more largely is unreasonable, that I worry most. Fortunately for me I'm white, middle-aged, middle-class and look it--if you are poor, have a little skin color or a young male, you are **** out of luck--or if you are middle class and white and look it, but are in the wrong place at the wrong time, your person can also be invaded by any numbskull with a badge--here I'm thinking about the no neck ex jock wanna be rambo imbeciles who arrested my oldest friend, a NOAS pilot, and his brother--a fireman, paramedic and reservist, after Katrina--in front of his OWN HOUSE!

Second, don't make my knife, gun, drug of choice illegal and I won't have the break the law. (my guns are legal and I don't do drugs other than nicotine and caffeine, but I'm trying to make a point).

Third, and I think this was said more eloquently above--the more power Big Brother has, the more power Big Brother wants. This is fine for some people--it was fine for a lot of people who had the correct genetics in Germany, Austria, etc--those people were ok with an invasive, omnipotent government because it promised them safety and security. It didn't work out well for them in the end, and it sure as **** didn't work out for the rest. If you believe that can't happen in the U.S., you're kidding yourself, it has happened. That was my point.

Finally, if you've never been subjected to stop and search (beyond TSA--though there has plenty of press about those rent-a-bodies locking people up and forgetting about them) by a cop when you haven't done anything wrong, you just can't appreciate the feelings of indignity, outrage and injustice that follow.

As far as I'm concerned, Big Bro has no business knowing where I go, who I talk with, what I buy, or what's in my pockets or trunk, and unless or until I hurt someone else, it should stay that way! Instead, what has happened is that scared sheep who aren't capable of independent thought allow sensationalist media personalities to think for them with the result being that to alleviate the sensationalist bred fear, those sheep will trade away MY freedom and privacy.

Wow. I haven't ranted like this in weeks. Thanks for the post. :p

[thebestnoobcake]

I emailed the police at the start of last year and got this back.
A Swiss army knife/pocket knife would be classified as a controlled
weapon in Victoria under the Control of Weapons Act 1990.

A controlled weapon means -
(a) a knife, other than a knife that is a prohibited weapon; or
(b) an article that is prescribed by the regulations to be a controlled
weapon.

You are not required to have a Chief Commissioner's Approval for
Controlled Weapons (this is only issued for Prohibited Weapons). You
only require a lawful excuse to possess Controlled Weapons.

Under the Control of Weapons Act 1990 Section 6 (3) it states:
In this section lawful excuse includes -
(a) the pursuit of any lawful employment, duty or activity; and
(b) participation in any lawful sport, recreation or entertainmentl and
(c) the legitimate collection, display or exhibition of weapons - but
does not include for the purpose of self- defence.

Note: a lawful excuse is only for knives that are classified as a
controlled weapons

If you require any further information please feel free to e-mail:
licensingservices@police.vic.gov.au

Yours Sincerely

Licensing Services Division
This still stands, with the only difference being the search laws.
These new laws are an extreme pain in the ***. I live down in Melbourne, Victoria, the state that prides itself on having THE most draconian laws in Australia... yaay.
Everyone who has seen me use my knives ask me whether it is illegal. I tell them no. Most agree that it is the MEDIA and POLITICIANS that hype the "knife culture" of youth these days.
THEY ARE WRONG!! They should spend their time and money on fixing families so that kids grow up in a supportive environment and feel secure and have a high self esteem. If the media keeps showing violent tv shows and hping all these knife attacks (carried out with kitchen knives), children will start to see knives as a valid way to stand up to bullies as they have not been taught by their parents how to deal with such a situation!

If my fellow Aussies could write to their MPs, that would be great. But noo.. the media has everyone wetting themselves.

Nick.

EDIT: I looked through some videos of confiscated weapons, and all of them were cheapo pieces of poop. And Two thirds or so of them were those "tacticool knives" with serrations, saw teeth, black coatings and looked plain ugly.