Why Hollow Ground on Manix 2

[tomcrx]

Long time no see. Just saw the new Manix 2. Did sal ever post why they went with the HG? It was surprising to me since most Golden made knives are FG. I really like the choice of 154 CM though.

Thanks

Tom

[The Deacon]

One of the goals with the initial release of the Manix 2 was to keep it as inexpensive as possible. That's why it used a good quality, but relatively inexpensive steel and a hollow grind which costs less to produce than a full flat grind. It also was intended to appeal to the general public, who still favor hollow grinds, rather than just the "afi" community.

[gunmike1]

Josh pretty much nailed it. I might add that the HG blade also combines good shallow slicing ability (like skinning or other cuts that don't go to full blade depth) along with good strength due to the saber grind. I found it to cut decent enough, but sent mine off to Tom Krein for a FFG to a .015" edge. I usually go to a .010" thick edge, but since this a a hard use, beat the crap out ofme folder I am leaving it thicker than I normally would. I am also having my well used (very hard use, still locks up like new) original Manix in for a regrind to .015" as the edge has gotten way thicker than when I got it 2 1/2 plus years ago from so much beating and sharpening. Truthfully I doubt you would notice much difference (Deacon actually thought the Manix 2 out sliced the Mini Manix) in cutting ability between the Manix 2 and original Manix due to the thinner blade stock of the Manix 2.

Mike

[Blerv]

Deacon's pics on that initial review also show the M2 having a slightly thicker tip than the Mini Manix (even with the 3.5 vs 4mm blade stock).

I don't mind having a thicker tip as it's not going to be a flat razor anytime soon, without help from a belt sander at least. The M2 remains a very robust knife and rest assured it's scary sharp out of the box. It was turning paper into dust on day 1 and still locked up like a tank.

There is talk from Sal of the next variation being a FFG, S90v with CF ply-peel slabs. Then you can pick your poison. :D

[vic]

i love ffg blades because they slice so well

i also love hollow grinds, almost as much. they cut really well and you can get a fine edge because of the nature of the grind

i do prefer the hollow grind (any grind really) to start as high up on the blade as possible and i wish the m2's hollow grind started higher but i do much prefer it to a flat grind starting from the same point

[The Deacon]

Another way of looking at things would be that, even with the roughly $45 added cost of a Krein regrind, the Manix 2 is still a good value.

[tomcrx]

Sorry for the late reply. Thanks for the answer Deacon. Now that you mention that it is made of thinner blade stock the HG makes more sense.

[v8r]

I Can't see what all the hype is about full flat grind?I actually use all my knives and see no real benifit to ffg.I really think most people here just like the way it looks. :confused:

[Sword of Morning]

I Can't see what all the hype is about full flat grind?I actually use all my knives and see no real benifit to ffg.I really think most people here just like the way it looks. :confused:

I agree. I was caught up in the "ffg is better" mindset for a little while. Honestly, I just took the reasoning as truth and never really questioned the logic. It seemed to make sense, so why not? After awhile, I started to see that I don't really notice that much of a difference in general use. It could be that I don't do a certain type of slicing or cut thick cardboard that much, but I am very happy with the hollow grind on the Manix 2.

[The Deacon]

Horses for courses. Every grind serves a purpose. Thickness is also a factor. Flat saber is the best grind for sabers and works well where edge strength is of high importance. At any given thickness, hollow saber is the best for slicing thin materials, since it is the thinnest directly behind the edge. Full flat works best for thick materials, especially thick, soft materials. Full hollow works best for straight razors, where blade strength is not a concern. Even chisel grind has its place, it's great for doing what chisels do, shaving thin slices from thick stock. So it works great for kitchen knives, as long as the flat is on the correct side. However, most chisel grind folding knives are built for show, not for go, unless the user is left handed. :D

Looks are also a factor. Some makers, and some uses, think a lot of different grinds on the same blade look good. Some like swedge grinds, others like the look of a bevel spine. Still others, my self included, prefer the stark simplicity of a full flat or convex grind without added gimmick grinds.

[v8r]

I was beginning to think that I was the only one that wasn't convinced that FFG is the best grind in the world.I cannot see any real world ''usage" where FFG cuts so much better than a hollow ground edge does.Maybe It's because I am no small guy(believe me I am not bragging)and can make my hollow ground knives cut the same as a FFG blade. :confused: I do cut vegetables with my Orange Military,but it has a thin edge(I believe this is where the performance comes from), not the grind behind the edge.I can take my Chinook 3 and it dosen't cut vegetables worth a dang.It's got the ultra cool FFG blade :rolleyes: but it is thick behind the edge.A Chinook 1 on the other hand with a Hollow ground blade will cut just about anything(that I need to cut) like it ain't no thing.Take a Adventura and cut something with it.It cuts like a scapel,and it has a hollow ground blade with a thin edge.

I'm not trying to make fun of anybody.If you like FFG that's great,but I'm not convinced it's the grind of all grinds.I think it makes all the difference in the world how thick the edge is.I have used most of my knives in the real world, and don't just take some so called expert's opinion(Unless it is Sal's because he does this for a living).I am no expert and these are my findings , and not just me jumping on the bandwagon.

[npueppke]

I think FFG blades look much better, but yeah as far as performance goes... the difference is negligible.

[Josh K]

Josh pretty much nailed it. I might add that the HG blade also combines good shallow slicing ability (like skinning or other cuts that don't go to full blade depth) along with good strength due to the saber grind. I found it to cut decent enough, but sent mine off to Tom Krein for a FFG to a .015" edge. I usually go to a .010" thick edge, but since this a a hard use, beat the crap out ofme folder I am leaving it thicker than I normally would. I am also having my well used (very hard use, still locks up like new) original Manix in for a regrind to .015" as the edge has gotten way thicker than when I got it 2 1/2 plus years ago from so much beating and sharpening. Truthfully I doubt you would notice much difference (Deacon actually thought the Manix 2 out sliced the Mini Manix) in cutting ability between the Manix 2 and original Manix due to the thinner blade stock of the Manix 2.

Mike

I did nail that didn't I? :D

What they said, and actually I like it. I wasn't crazy about it, but after using it I really like it. At $80 you can't beat this knife for value.

[v8r]

The Manix 2 is a awesome knife, and performs very well.I am glad the Spydecrew decided to go with a hollow ground edge and CBL.

[tomcrx]

Well I finally got one. Like it... impressions later. Do not take this the wrong way but it kind of reminds me in some ways of the BM Grip, especially with all the jimping.

[vic]

my newest kitchen knives are ffg and slice considerably better than my other kitchen knives which are ground from halfway down the blade

imagine you are slicing a thick piece of cheese, say you are slicing it with a ffg blade (like the spyderco military), then imagine you are slicing it with a hollow (say a byrd cara cara) or flat ground blade with the grind starting halfway down the blade

the ffg slices better, the flat section of the mid spine grinds can catch instead of slicing straight through.

for cutting rope or cord it couldn't make any difference and a sharp hollow grind would be as good as anything. depends what you're cutting

of course you could cut the cheese with whatever you want but to say there is no advantage to a ffg is wrong, it is advantageous for slicing where the whole blade must slice cleanly through material. for slicing shallow material where the whole blade doesn't have to go through a hollow grind could be just as good or better but the ffg has advantages that aren't just aesthetic.

there are other advantages to ffg such as making full use of the broadness of the blade to gradually come to a sharp edge rather than starting from the midway point and having to come to a more abrupt, thicker and maybe less sharp edge

i probably explained myself badly but i slice and eat a lot of cheese and i have come appreciate that slicing being as easy as possible

[v8r]

I will still maintain my argument that edge thickness has mostly to do with cutting performance. I have nothing against FFG. I believe a high hollow ground blade will do everything that people claim a FFG blade will.I would also be willing to bet it would peel the slices away better also.The slices wouldn't get stuck to the blade like they do on a FFG blade.Just my observations, nothing more. By the way Pampered Chef makes a wicked Cheese Knife.(My wife got me one)

[Blerv]

HG for some purposes will out-shine a FFG which is why it's still around besides aesthetics. I believe Sal said at one point it's not much cheaper than FFG so it's not like one grind is free.

I like FFG and knives like the Stretch/Lum/Caly Jr/Caly3 make it shine. Other HG's like the Cento series and Adventura would make any nay-sayer double take. :eek:

[The Deacon]

The only truly fair way to compare the performance of grinds is to test them on blades that, aside from the grinds, are identical. Otherwise additional variables are introduced. Blade thickness, blade height, blade shape, steel type.

If someone really wanted to do such a test, either the Delica or the Endura would be the ideal platform. FRN versions have a flat saber grind. SS versions have a hollow saber grind. G-10 versions have a full flat grind. All are available in VG-10. I'd bet, if someone did that, their conclusion would be that each grind is the best grind for something, and the worst grind for something else.

[Blerv]

Dr. Snubnose did a Chinook test and has made comments regarding the C3 being not on par with the C1 & C2 from a more defensive roll.

However, that isn't general use for sure.