ZDP-189 users

[TexSierra]

Have you noticed any real difference between it and say VG10 steel?

I just purchased a ComboEdge Endura with the ZDP steel. I will be making a set of custom scales for it in black G10 once I get it. I hope to make it my new EDC and retire my 10 year old SE Endura to "special use times". I decided that I wanted a CE blade, and I wanted to try out the ZDP. However, I haven't really heard anyone doing a real world comparison to say a VG10 steel. I have looked here, and didn't really find what I was looking for. Anyone have any info for me?

[THG]

I haven't really gotten to use mine yet, but for the time I have, I have noticed a difference.

Compared to VG-10, the ZDP is "easier" to cut with after a long session of cardboard cutting. What I mean is that I don't have to push as hard to cut after say taking down 10 boxes. The difference is quite noticeable.

Also very noticeable is how much longer it takes to sharpen ZDP. It really takes forever -_-

I sent mine to a shop to get it reprofiled and sharpened and just got it back yesterday. I haven't gotten a chance to use it yet.

Btw, my comparisons are between a D4W VG-10 and E4 ZDP. Note that the blade thickness might have something to do with my results/observations.

[yablanowitz]

I haven't done a comparison between VG-10 and ZDP-189 because, in my opinion, there is no comparison. The ZDP will take a thinner edge, and it will hold it a lot longer than VG-10. Two to three times as long in my experience. I have only one knife with serrations in ZDP, and I've never used it, so I can't say how suitable the steel will be with teeth.

[clovisc]

i've come to prefer steels that are easier to sharpen. ZDP is a lot of fun, though...

[JD Spydo]

I do love all my VG-10 blades. But ZDP-189 is for sure in a higher performance bracket.

Now ZDP-189 does have some corrosion issues that people do need to be aware of but if you keep the blade clean of salts, acids, alkalis, chlorine and other corrosive elements you will be just fine. But don't put a ZDP-189 blade away with any kind of fruit or vegetable residue on it>> otherwise you'll be shocked at the outcome.

I'm now very careful with my 2 ZDP blades and I do love the way they cut with surgical precision and with razor type ease.

But I would also be the very last person to talk negative in any way or manner about VG-10. It is an excellent, hard working steel. But ZDP-189 takes a wicked edge that few steels can compare with. And YAB is right on the money about the thin edge capabilities too.

[The Deacon]

My two primary EDC knives are a ZDP-189 Stretch and a customized VG-10 Stretch. In my opinion both are excellent slicers. If the handles were identical, and both were freshly sharpened, I don't think I could tell which was which until after a considerably amount of use. The ZDP definitely does hold an edge longer but, as mentioned by THG, it also takes more effort to sharpen if allowed to lose that edge. What I find myself doing is sharpening both whenever I think the VG-10 one needs it and using about the same number of strokes on each. That way, the ZDP never loses its edge.

I will admit my observations are totally unscientific and subjective.

[TexSierra]

I keep a razors edge on my knifes anyway, so I don't forsee an issue with having to reprofile it any time soon. I was just looking for something that will maintain a good edge after lots of hard use.

I do appreciate the heads up about the corrosion issues. I have read other places that the high cobalt makeup of the steel should prevent corrosion, but if you have had personal experience with it, that means it probably does.

Oh well, I guess I will just have to get a Pacific Salt to use when I go camping/working outdoors.

[LowTEC]

There is no comparison. I love my VG-10 blades, alot of them actually, but in terms of edge holding, ZDP is simply MUCH superior. I cut a lot wine boxes daily at work, ZDP out cut the VG-10 3 to 4 times longer yet the 65Rc edge cut just that much better with narrower angle. Simply amazing.
I know my experience is not the most scientific but it represents real life usage.

In order to show case the advantage of the extra hardness, you need to profile yours no more than 30 degree inclusive, you will be amazed how well ZDP blades can cut. Of course, it comes with a price, you need AT LEAST diamond stones to do it, or like me, get a belt sander, saves you a lot of time, money, and effort in the long run, takes a 20 hrs job in 20 minutes with better result :)

For your info, I work 50 yards from the ocean (check my location) and I never have any rust problem with any of my knives except the Kershaw ZDP leek that i left lime juice over the blade over night.
Treat it as tool steel (like CPM D2 on steroid :D ) and you won't have rust problem. Don't leave fruit juice on the blade for hours, just DON'T :o

[Murdoc]

The corrosion issue was quite annoying on my Endura.... before I gave it a FFG treatment

I can't for the life of me get a fine, hair-popping edge on ZDP blades. They ARE sharp after a good sharpmaker session, but always still a little "rough", like with huge micro-serrations; they won't slice cleanly. I was never able to restore the factory sharpness or even come close. I have no problem with that when it comes to VG-10 blades. I am maybe just too stupid or clumsy to treat ZDP steel right.

Concerning the corrosion, here are 2 threads worth reading, including pics of my Endura with staining and after the "healing treatment":

http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?p=455532

http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35223


Dennis

[hickster]

I have heard of ZDP-189 and S90V being "equals" as for modern blade steels. But it is sounding like ZDP-189 is slightly harder on the rockwell scale, yet S90V seems to have much better corrosion resistance, yes? I am getting quite familiar with S90V having a millie and a few mules (one "in use"), and I love it. Corrosion has NOT been an issue. I am especially concerned about the corrosion on the ZDP-189 as I was planning on getting a FRN/ZDP Stretch for my dad for use as a garden knife but the corrosion thing is starting to scare me. Is it more of an issue than with VG-10?
hickster

[THG]

I can't for the life of me get a fine, hair-popping edge on ZDP blades. They ARE sharp after a good sharpmaker session, but always still a little "rough", like with huge micro-serrations; they won't slice cleanly.

I agree with that. I just had mine sharpened. They guy used some really fine Japanese stones, and it still won't split hair. It's still really, really sharp, but it just doesn't seem to get as sharp as my VG-10.

the corrosion thing is starting to scare me. Is it more of an issue than with VG-10?
hickster

VG-10 is known for its above excellent corrosion resistance. VG-10 is many, many times more corrosion resistant than ZDP.

[vampyrewolf]

My caly jr has hit the ceramic stones once and is no where near as sharp as I'd like it.

Think tomorrow I bring out the AO stones and spend a few hours on it.

[LowTEC]

I can ensure that the ZDP can split hair with a good sharp edge, in fact, my ZDP blades can split hair that many times longer than VG-10

Actually, all my blades can split hair, including ZDP, VG-10, CPM S30V, S30V, CPM D2, 1098, AUS8; the only steel I can't get split hair sharpness is H1, but I won't give up until the blade is all gone :D

[Murdoc]

[...] I was planning on getting a FRN/ZDP Stretch for my dad for use as a garden knife [...]

I love this knife and bought two of them (CF, that is).
That said, I would never use them as garden knives (as I understand that term). For garden use, I'd strongly prefer a different knife with different steel and no PE to boot. I'd probably get a serrated Atlantic or Pacific Salt with rust-proof H-1 steel. Advantages include:
-grippy and light unlinered FRN scales
-easy to clean
-pinned construction ensures simple use without much maintenance
-won't rust even if forgotten and lost in the garden through a winter season
-H-1 performs great in SE
-big hole to operate safely even with gloves
-available in signal yellow to be found easily when dropped in soil
-and finally, it won't cost an arm and a leg (I don't know the street price for the upcoming FRN/ZDP Stretch II, though).
The ZDP Stretch II is a fine piece of cutlery, but maybe not the best suited knife for dirty garden work. Just IMO and FWIW. Maybe I'm getting the term "garden knife" wrong.

I can ensure that the ZDP can split hair with a good sharp edge, in fact, my ZDP blades can split hair that many times longer than VG-10

Actually, all my blades can split hair, including ZDP, VG-10, CPM S30V, S30V, CPM D2, 1098, AUS8; the only steel I can't get split hair sharpness is H1, but I won't give up until the blade is all gone :D

Congrats! I continue to try, but it seems there are people who don't have much trouble to sharpen ZDP in any form and others who constantly despair of getting this steel as sharp as desired. I am in the latter group :o

Dennis

[yablanowitz]

I sharpen my ZDP like any other steel, on diamond hones. Once I got past the feel, I didn't have any trouble getting a fine edge. At first, the hardness of the steel tricked me into using too much pressure in an effort to feel the abrasion that is normal with other steels. ZDP felt like it was just sliding across the hone. Once I accepted that abrasion was occurring in spite of the feel, the steel sharpened up just fine. It took a little longer, but I can handle that.

Although CATRA testing puts ZDP-189 and S90V very close in edge holding, my own experience at work puts S90V ahead by a wide margin. Both leave VG-10 in the dust. As far as corrosion goes, I have not seen any on S90V, a little on my first ZDP Delica but none on my other ZDP blades, and none on my girlfriend's ZDP Delica that she uses landscaping. Maybe it is the result of living in a near-desert climate, or maybe it's because I'm an old geezer who has carried carbon steel for decades, but I personally think the corrosion issue has been blown way out of proportion.

[Murdoc]

[...]but I personally think the corrosion issue has been blown way out of proportion.

The staining/pitting (no real RUST technically) that was visible on my Endura had developed in 3 hours of RFP carry in brand new condition on a warm summer day in black uniform pants -> I was admittedly sweating on the blade. But I never thought this staining could occur in such a short time. This was a real bummer for me and quite surprising as well, so in my personal opinion, it is not blown way out of proportion too far:
I think a potentional buyer should be aware of this possibility. If he can live with that, more power to him. But I still believe it should be mentioned, as well as the facts that other users never had any rust/staining issues with their ZDP blades, and edge holding is superior to VG-10.

Dennis

[gunmike1]

ZDP-189 takes an incredibly thin and acute edge and holds it much better than VG-10. I have taken it to 5 degrees per side on my lighter duty precision cutter and it holds that edge for an incredibly long amount of time. It cuts cardboard until you get bored of cutting it. It is pretty amazing stuff. VG-10 is good stuff just not in the same league as ZDP-189. Then again, I did use a VG-10 Caly 3 SE that cut cardboard and rope WAY longer than PE VG-10 can, so the Spyderedge may be the great equalizer. Then again, if you got SE ZDP you may cut cardboard for weeks before needing to sharpen it. You would definately want some diamond sharpmaker rods to start that job, though. I also heard the pro-file stones work great on Spyderedges, but I don't think they offer them in diamond. I really should get some pro files and try them, because as good as the SM is at sharpening a SE I would think over time it would round off the points, where the pro files would't.

Also, I remember a thread a while back about ZDP-189 in a SE chipping out. That same week I had chipped out VG-10 serrations doing the same thing (cutting a thick cardboard tube), and I have AUS-8 SE knives with chips, and that steel is on the tougher side as decent performing stainless goes. I think it is because serrations are ground on one side, making them much more acute than a PE with a V grind, then people beat on the serrations and wonder why they chip. Treat them with respect and they can greatly increase your edge retention, but I still prefer the smooth cutting and simple sharpening of a PE.

Mike

[JD Spydo]

This has really got me wondering about the second and third generation of Spyderco ZDP blades :confused: . There are a few items we all need to consider here.

First of all my main ZDP-189 user blade is my original Calypso Jr. with the Burgundy handle that I got back in the summer of 2005 when they were first released. That knife has been nothing but a sterling, reliable, high performance blade since the day I bought it. It was undoubtedly one of the very first generation of the Spyderco ZDP-189 blades. If my memory serves me well I got mine the very first week or month they were released.

I have sharpened that knife at least 15 to 20 times since I've owned it. And really that's not many considering how many times I've used that knife. That's also not many sharpenings considering that during that time and over those 4 years I routinely changed EDC users quite often. I've used and sharpened that knife a lot during that time period and it's because I liked the way it performed.

It wasn't until about a little over a year ago I started hearing a few people say like a few of you on this thread are saying that you can't get a good edge on your ZDP Spyderco blade :confused: .

There are 2 possibilities I would like to consider. First of all I'm wondering if there wasn't a bad batch of certain models that might not have been heat treated properly or even a sub-par batch of ZDP-189 steel from the foundry. Now please people I'm not at all suggesting that Spyderco did anything nefarious at all. But it is possible that a few blades might have been processed incorrectly.

My Caly Jr. with the ZDP blade has been one of my very best users ever. Personally I'm impressed with ZDP-189 blade steel. And I'm having a terrible time believing that these brothers/sisters and not to mention our esteemed Vampyrewolf who knows steel and is a very highly skilled sharpener who I've learned a lot from is himself having trouble with his ZDP blade just makes me believe that there is an underlying problem. Because my ZDP user Caly Jr is top notch. And everyone I know that bought one of the early Burgundy ZDP Caly Juniors all told me that they had super results with that knife. We need to put our heads together. Because something just doesn't add up here

[vivi]

ZDP189 is among my favorite steels. Takes very thin edges and holds them well. Gets VERY sharp and holds that edge for a while. Haven't had any corrosion issues myself, but I never put a knife back into my pocket without cleaning it first. Really I find ZDP189 to be one of the easiest steels to sharpen. Hardly even burrs, pretty much does all the work for me.

[THG]

Oh, another note on ZDP vs VG-10: the blade itself will scratch much less compared to VG-10 :D