Lil' Temperance2 - discussion

[sal]

I would like to discuss the handle of the Lil' Temperance. I have a design for a "2" version, but I've softened the finger grooves to a curved underside more like the Stretch2.

Some have indicated, like Ken, that the original shape should be maintained. Since we value the opinions of our customers, we try to peel back the design / preference part of the envelope.

While it is a very purpose built dedsign, the advantages of the Lil'Temperance design are:

3" Lil' Temperance blade
legal in most areas
Long enough for most tasks
Wide for strength at the length
Very high blade length / cutting edge ratio
versatile leaf shape
Large (14mm) thumb hole

Handle:
strong wide guards to pevent sliding forward on blade
Broad width for secure grip
Ergonomic for comfort, and long term use

Compression lock
Strong and reliable
Ambidextrous
light

Negatives that were discussed in a prior thread
Finger grooves make handle too wide for easy carry
Finger grooves limit grips
Clip needed to be improved

The new handle shape
is more universal
Will accomodate more grips

I would like to use the new handle shape, and a Superhawk tip up left/right wire clip. We are still in question about the dimples in the handle.

I'd like to make a short run with the same blade shape. 3mm thick instead of 4mm. Full flat VG-10. G-10 handle, black and foliage green.

We are still in question about serrations.

If the model is well received, we'll consider an FRN version like the Endura4, Delica4, Stretch2.

Before we begin the new prototype, I would like you to share your thoughts.

sal

[The Mastiff]

This project sounds logical, well thought out, comfortable, but too short for me. No offense meant, but this concept is begging for at least a 3.5 inch blade IMHO.

I understand why the trend is toward more compact cutters that will be able to sell in more areas but for the most part I've stopped buying knives less than 3.5 inches long at the price points these knives come in at. Joe

[thefly01]

I carried and used a Lil Temp PE S30V for over a year. The only problem I had was with the clip. Some furniture in the house still shows scars from that clip. Other than that I found the blade superb and the handle was very comfortable. I'm glad a new Lil Temp is finally becoming a reality and I can't wait to have one in my pocket.

[Halfneck]

The only complaint I ever had on the old Lil'Temperance was the handle size from top to bottom (width?) seemed a bit large. It worked well in a hammer-grip, & reverse-grip, but a saber-grip my hand seemed a bit stretched.

Outside of that, the clip could be a pocket shredder, but I never carried 1 long enough to experience it myself.

From your post it seems as both those points are being addressed. I look forward to seeing how the Lil'Temperance 2 turns out.

[Ted]

Hi Sal, my only "issues" with the previous model were:

Too few "retention" on the blade when closed
Grip of the clip

For the rest it was a perfect knife, also perfectly made.
I really regret that I messed up mine on my Tormek sharpener ... it's now almost a wharncliffe :o

I would prefer to see the blade thickness stay at 4mm instead of going to 3mm and I would favor a normal clip instead of a wireclip. G-10 with the same color as the first run of the blueish grey/greyish blue ZDP delica would be a nice change to folliage green & black.

Can't wait to see a proto! :)

Ted

[GronK]

It sounds to me like you're headed exactly the right direction. The only downside to the one I had was the width (depth?) that made it difficult to get by to retrieve things from the pocket it was clipped to.

[Lord vader]

I like the 3.5 inch blade to, but a lot more states for legality purposes only allow to carry a 3 inch blade.

[Spygineer]

I'd like to make a short run with the same blade shape. 3mm thick instead of 4mm. Full flat VG-10. G-10 handle, black and foliage green.

sal

Forgive my ignorance, but isn't part of the reason of what made the lil temp (and the mini manix) workhorse knives, due to their beefy blade thickness. Just got the old mini manix and love it!!! But a little dissapointed that both the lil temp2 and manix2 wont have the same beefy 4mm blade thickness. Maybe this is all just a marketing thing and not necessarily a definition of a workhorse knife, but, IMHO there is not much more that makes these stand out from the rest of other spydies line up.

[SSB]

I personally like the dimples & the finger grooves.14mm hole,a must!
The clip can be improved , a different color G-10 would be nice ,keep the thickness to 4mm please & you should consider se as well(Right Spydutch?).
Might a trailing point style blade be offered as well,like the first Lil'Temp?
My personal favorite blade shape!
Looking forward to whatever it turns out like! :D
regards,SSB :spyder:

[catamount]

I 3rd the 3 1/2" blade. It would be like a high end version of the Tenacious.

[JD Spydo]

This project sounds logical, well thought out, comfortable, but too short for me. No offense meant, but this concept is begging for at least a 3.5 inch blade IMHO.

I understand why the trend is toward more compact cutters that will be able to sell in more areas but for the most part I've stopped buying knives less than 3.5 inches long at the price points these knives come in at. Joe

I fully agree with Mastiff on this one. A 2 inch blade wouldn't do me much good for a folder with that design/style. Like Mastiff, I would prefer something along the lines of 3.5 inches as he suggested but I could live with a 3 inch blade as was on the original.

Also I would definitely want it available in SE, Spyderedge along with one of CPM's blade steels as was used on the previous Lil Ts; something like D-2 or S90V would be ideal. Would like either G-10 or the rougher Carbon Fiber for a handle.

Also I would like a Rhino Horn variation as was one the first Lil T.

[spoonrobot]

I would like to use the new handle shape, and a Superhawk tip up left/right wire clip. We are still in question about the dimples in the handle.

As I lefty; I would like to see the dimples passed over for this incarnation of the design. They just don't work for the left hand. The ambi clip would be much appreicated!

I would like to see a more original style handle, the grooves may not excel in other grips but there are quite a few of us who quite literally never use more than the one regular style of grip, a grip in which the grooves are excellent. The Superhawk also looks pretty wide closed, the handle may thinner than the Lil' Temp but if the whole thing is as thick/thicker when closed it's a wash for the grooves and they should be evaluated on ergonomics during use only.

I don't own a SuperHawk but from viewing pictures and reading reviews I think the handle would be a little too large for the concept. The prominent index finger choil is a little problematic since this was forgone on the original in order (I assume) to maximize cutting area in the shorter blade.

I would love to see the Superhawk handle paired with a leaf-shaped blade but I don't think it fits my notion of the Lil' Temperance concept.

G10 over carbon fiber, more foliage green please and thickness would be dependent on length: 4mm if a 3" blade and 3mm if a 3.5" blade. And a Rhino horn would be exciting. :D



Bottom photos courtesy of DMgangl

[Mr Blonde]

I'm glad to see that the Li'l Temp II is still one of those 'irons in the fire'. :D !

I would prefer to keep the blade 3inches long and 4mm thick (this knife should be as stout as possible, those looking for keen slicers can get a Caly III ), also with the same size opening hole. The refinement of the handle sounds promising. Funny enough I did slip my trusty Li'l Temp in my pocket this weekend. There's one aspect of the handle that I haven't seen mentioned; the thickness. Is it possible to make the handle 'thinner' (not narrower, but thinner for more comfortable pocket carry)?

I had no problems with the old clip, but a 4-way clip mount sounds great. I still like the divots in the handle very much. In the past, I've seen a wireclip design that still allowed for a functional divot in the clip, is that still a consideration?

I feel serrations are a must on this model, please offer a full SE option for this knife. The serrations add significant cutting power to this compact design that -in my mind- should be capable of handling all possible cutting chores, serrations do just that in my experience.

A two-inch Li'l Temp design? Funny, I always figured the Ti Salsa was the two inch variation of the original Li'l Temp.

Wouter

[MCM]

Sounds like your right on target to me.

Tip up, low ride wire clip.
Easier carry (reduced thickness & width)
Flat VG-10 & Black G-10
(3" bladeis fine but 3 1/4" - 3 1/2 would suit me a bit better)

Sounds like a winner already!

[A.M.]

Sal, thanks for posting this thread. I have long awaited a return of the updated Lil' Temp. IMHO, it was and is my favorite and most utilitarian designs in the Spyderco line up. It is definitely a workhorse by design. I have owned 5 different Lil' Temps, two S30V leaf blade versions and three different 440V versions. Currently, I'm edcing a new Trailing Pt I picked up at a gun show a few weeks ago.

I've had no complaints about the width of the handle or length of the blade. For me the pocket clip has always been an issue of contention, but I've found ways to deal with it. Also, I really like the dimples in the handle.

My suggested improvements:

1. Tip up left/right wire pocket clip.
2. I personally prefer the old style handle but look forward to the improved version.
3. Keep the dimples but include them on both scales.
4. CF peel-ply scales would be nice but if this is short run then I suggest G-10 to keep the price down.
5. I have no issues with the 3" blade design. To me this is purpose driven design. I think with the future offerings of a leaf bladed Superhawk and the Manix 2 on the horizion, those designs should fullfill the desire for a 3.5" blade.

Finally, after disassembling and reassembling, closing and opening both the 440V versions and the S30V versions, there is a lot of differences between the two comp. locks. Personally, the 440V versions seem to be better built in terms of fit and finish but I've never had a problem with either. If the lock from the Superhawk is incorporated in this version, that would be awesome.

Anyhow, put me down for two...

[Peter1960]

Lil'Temperence is one of your three best folder designs, Sal! (IMHO)
I enjoy the Lil'Temperence a lot and have only one big complaint - the clip.

If you will use a strong low ride wire clip that's fine for me, 4mm blade thickness + 14 mm thumb hole too. And if possible please do me a favour and forget foliage green ... don't you think there are enough foliage green models out in the meantime? Can't believe that foliage green handles are bestseller.

Hope that the character of the Lil'Temperence keeps alive: midsize, strong, wide handle, easy to clean

If you offer PE and SE I'll buy ... plain edge only.

[roguesoul]

I'm surprised to hear Lil Temperance described as a light weight knife.
I recalled selling mine because it was so heavy.
I wanted to see version2 in carbon fiber.
VG10 is a step backwards.

I'm extremely happy with the Sage.
The Spyderco S model made with the same materials as the Sage would be Absolute Perfection. A S Version2 carbon fiber S30V wouldn't need cut-outs either.

Lil Temperance will never be perfect.

[kbuzbee]

Sounds great, Sal. As we've discussed, I love the grip of the original. I don't really know why. It doesn't look like it would be comfortable but it sure as heck is (for me anyway). I just love that big beefy grip.

As others have indicated, staying true to the original concept is going to require maintaining some design points. Otherwise, is it REALLY a Lil'T? Or something else altogether?

The original clip, for example, was designed to facilitate spinning the knife. I don't do that and vote strongly for a Caly 3 wire clip but it does stray from the concept. And the counter side dimples were there for the same reason. Would I miss them? No.... But it was part of the reason for the design.

Also a thinner blade would be great. Make it a better slicer. But the thick blade was part of what made it the Lil'T....

And for those folks who want a longer blade, I get that, but it was designed this way. There are other knives in the line up for longer and shorter fans but I vote to keep the length functionally the same.

I'd love to see a proto, as well. I hope the big beefy nature in a little tiny knife thing is still there.

Oh, and while VG-10 is fine if it's a regular production model, can we see a sprint in something like M4??

Thanks for the request Sal. Love being part of the process.

Ken

[MCM]

Any S90v scraps left over from the last Mule Team?

Or is it being made overseas?

I get the 3" blade part. And have a lot of 3" and under knifes.
Its just that with me, they are seldom the ones I actually carry.
Most just sit there while the bigger ones get to go outside.

[JLS]

Sal, thanks for considering another run. My real question is what is the intent this time? Is it to make the design appeal to more ELU's or update one of the original MBC designs? That will make a lot of the decisions easier.

The Lil' Temp was one of the original MBC knives for Spyderco and I'd like to see it stick to those ideals. To me, it's a stout little guy that is hard use and legal everywhere. My Lil' Temp is my standard folder in "unfriendly territory" (where I can't carry a pistol and bigger knife). Because of that, I view my Lil' Temp as a self-defense tool more than an everyday user. It was a very specific design before and excels in that role.

I'd like to see a few things stay true to the original MBC intent. 4mm thick blade, 14mm hole, strong lock and indexing dimples on handle and clip.

As much as I like the handle, I can live with a variation so long as you can still lock in the grip and have nice big guards. There are plenty of knives with softened curves, so this one needs to "stick" in good forward and reverse grips. The original handle was somewhere between unique and ugly in appearance, but you nailed it in function for MBC.

Please keep the handle relatively wide (top to bottom) for grip security. Handle thickness could go down a bit, but not much. Once again, as a MBC knife, this is a more of a self-defense tool and not a comfortable user. Just like others have said about a heavy pistol or rifle, it's comforting more than comfortable. That was the original Lil' Temp to me.

I understand many people whine about the clip on the original, but to me it was one of the best ever on a Spyderco knife. All I ever did was put a small radius on the edges that contact the pocket and it doesn't ruin any pants. The original clip and dimples made grip changes from front to reverse grip intuitive, just like they should for an MBC knife.

I'll be honest when I say that a tip-up only clip would completely ruin this for me. All knives that I carry for serious use (MBC/defensive) need to be tip-down and I know I'm not the only one. As far as a clip material, I can't see a wire clip helping with dimples or transitions. To me, it needs to be a stamped clip with holes.

VG-10 is fine to me. I don't understand the hate for VG-10 on the higher-end knives. It's a fantastic steel, but I guess the fact that it's the "standard" and not something exotic turns people off. I see this as an MBC functional knife, not a fashion statement.

Black, green, dark blue, I really don't care much on color so long as it's not flashy.

Plain edge or full serrations would be a nice option.

To sum up a pretty long post -

Same blade
Same lock
Same handle material in a darker color
Fairly wide handle with big guards and grip feature that will lock you in place
4mm thick blade with 14mm hole
4-way clip with dimples

Please Sal, don't water it down to make it appealing to more people! Keep it as a real MBC knife!