Best blade style for self defence?

[Bowie Man]

Hello everybody,

I've got a question and a quick commentary.

As a Copper in a big city I've been involved in many investigations dealing with knife attacks, stabbings and woundings. It's true that bandits use knives to commit crimes, but generally it's normal people involved in domestics or teenagers (angry young men) having disputes that lead to these ultra violent confrontations. During these attacks the weapon of choice is always some type of inexpensive kitchen knife or box-cutter/exacto knife. Non of these people use expensive or custom knives to stab and cut each other up.

The stab wounds are pretty generic and boring. Usually it's a small hole with a bit of swelling and some minor bleeding. They are however extremely deceptive, as a small wound can cause extensive internal damage depending on what was pierced or cut on the way in. One minute you're talking to the victim, the next it's time for a CPR mask.

The most graphic wounds are caused by box-cutter/exacto knives. Generally these knives are very inexpensive (three for a dollar at our Canadian "Dollar Stores") and are readily available almost anywhere. Wounds caused by these knives are phenomenally violent as they cut through skin, tendons and muscles. I've seen slashes to the face where the skull is acutally scarred due to the penetration and force of the cut. There have also been incidents where limbs have almost been severed off (execpt for the bone still connecting them) with one or two wild slashes. The damage and trauma that these knives inflict on the human body is incredible and difficult to explain unless you experience it first hand.

I understand that certain blade styles are designed for specific tasks, and that all can be used for self defence when required.....here's my question.
Do straight blades similar to those used in exacto knives cause more damage then other blade styles? And if so, would one of these blades ie: (Centofante 4 or Yojimbo) be a more practical as a SD knife over something designed as a MBC knife such as the Chinook? (not involving the back cut principal in this comparison).

Thanks

[Dr. Snubnose]

Bowie Man: It has been my experience in testing blade designs against meat as a target (search Dr. Snubnose Meat Tests on this forum for results for numerous spyderco knives)...that the wharcliffe design blades ie Yojimbo, Ronin, Cento 4, box cutters...etc. cut much deeper and longer than the blade lenght over other designs in blades....Yes Yes for sure I would choose this type of blade for self-defense over other types of blade designs....that is not to say that something like the Chinook is a bad knife for self-defense, because I think it is a fine knife for such a function, that being said I would still choose a Wharncliffe blade over all others...Doc :D

[Capt. Carl]

I take a liking to the Civilian. It is designed for you to slash and run and the blade is so intimidating that it will probably scare off most attackers when you whip it out. :eek:

I understand that the ronin/yojimbo are pretty devestating due to the wharncliffe blade you described with the box cutters.

[Dr. Snubnose]

I take a liking to the Civilian. It is designed for you to slash and run and the blade is so intimidating that it will probably scare off most attackers when you whip it out. :eek:

I understand that the ronin/yojimbo are pretty devestating due to the wharncliffe blade you described with the box cutters.

I once had an attacker who took one look at my opened Civilian and ran the other way quickly....it looks quite intimidating....but I wouldn't count on it happening again....you loose the ability to stab and jab with the Civilian if you need to...so my choice would still stand with the Wharnie blades regardless of blade lenght.....Doc :D

[thefly01]

The Civilian is definetly the choice! The knife is meant for slashing'n'running! This knife will never see it's potential by everyone thank God! If I had one Spyder to walk into battle with it would be my C12CFP! :cool:

[Capt. Carl]

The thing I like about the Civilian (other than how scary the blade is :eek: ) is how its not designed to kill (i.e. stabbing), its ment to cause severe pain and injury (to the "max") while you can flee.

[DFD04]

The thing I like about the Civilian (other than how scary the blade is :eek: ) is how its not designed to kill (i.e. stabbing), its ment to cause severe pain and injury (to the "max") while you can flee.

I agree about the Civi as a great SD knife, but have to say that if you were to slash at the right place (neck, inner arm/leg, flanks) you would not have a hard time killing someone. The damage that this knife can cause is huge.

[Zac]

Civilian as said. A razor sharp box cutter will cut exceptionally well...however, a Civilian is the most wicked of SD knives and it has saved me. Most thugs do not like to get cut and the Civilian screams that it is literally going to tear someone to pieces. The design also allows you to have more space between an attacker and yourself. As far as stabbing, you can directly enter on an angle; however it is rarely necessary. The slash wounds of the Civilian are wicked as the knife goes deeper naturaly as it cuts.

As far as killing someone with a C12...it aint hard. Massive blood loss will do that.

[cobrajoe]

I'm thinkin the SPOT should be similar to the Civi, but slightly less lethal. (I believe) It is designed to cause PAIN and "persuade" the attacker to stop. The VG-10 SPOT I got dosent cut as much as it grabs and rips, It came with a 40(?) degree angle on the bevel, and it dosen't like to cut on slashing strokes (on an old t-shirt)

But that's just my opinion, I've never used it or any other blade for SD (or even my fists for that matter).

[knightrider]

I think the Dodo is a fine SD knife as well. The full sized easy to hold handle and thick stocky blade are a great combo. I have read that it is very easy to cut to the bone, almost effortless. I also like smaller easier to carry knives, because if you aren't carrying it, you can't use it.

I also consider the Dodo to be a mini Civilian. That's how I convinced my friend to get one, he wanted a Civilian, but they are not legal to carry around here. So then I saw the thread on $50 Dodo's from Sierra Trading Post got 2, 1 for me and 1 for him. He is very happy!

[Dr. Snubnose]

I think some of you are missing the point of the original post...any knife could be used in a SD situation...the Civilian no matter how mean it looks is limited in it's SD capacity as opposed to other knives available on the market today...If you want to trust your life to using something like a Civilian I say go right ahead and may god bless you I hope you are never put into the position where you might have to use a knife to defend yourself...all I'm saying is there are better tools to get certain jobs done right...I don't believe that the Civilian is the best knife to use in a SD situation, there may be some advantages for a novice to use such a knife, and it might be easier to defend said knife in a court of law....but once again you have to survive the incident first just to get to court, slashing and running may very well be an option....but what if it's not enough...I know if it's not, I would have wished to have something different in the way of a knife in my hands if all I carried was the Civilian...Doc :D

[rcbalt2]

I'd go with the ronin or the yo. You can stab and slash. Just my thoughts I don't carry a knife for SD but if I did that would be it.

[JaM]

I 2nd that... Altough I dont own those knives (yet), I think if the SHTF I'll be stabbing... why ? Because that would be the "logical" thing to do when you are high on adrenlin.
Still, I EDC a D4 PE, and not my Lil'Temp. The D4 gets more use anyway, for "normal" EDC-tasks.

A Tasman SE makes a very good "poor man's Civilian", and makes you look better in court than a civvie. You can always claim to have that knife on you because you were rafting (or something similar) earlier and still had the knife on you...

Just my thoughts.

[Puyallupknifegu]

Doc,

I am with you...I carry my Yo for SD and I know that if I had to defend myself, it would do the trick. I must also say that this is not a concept I enjoy the thought of. I pray to God that I never have to cut, stab, slash or in any way hurt someone. I believe in speaking softly and carrying a big knife, and being prepared mentally ahead of time. :D

[Richard IV]

I'm with the Doc on that one."S" shaped blades are clearly not meant for close combat. They lack thrusting ability. But ain't we talking about "self defense"? Self defense is not, by far, "real" combat.

The "civilian", as its name implies, is designed to be used by people with no training in close combat: slashing madly and keeping distance comes naturally when you are under attack.

No real fighter, anyway, would use such a blade over a simple straight one...

[Cameron23]

Just a quick note:

The blade design of the Yojimbo and the Ronin came from cut tests on "targets" (both bare and covered in clothing of different materials) that Mr. Michael Janich performed. The Wharncliffe profile is the one that came out on top (with slight hawkbill shaped blades a close second I would guess only because they limit thrusting potential).

Plain edge was the edge of choice due to SEs getting hung-up in some types of materials even if they are factory-sharp (or better).

C :spyder:

[ruxton]

Much as I love the civilian, I'd prefer a yojimbo/ronin if I had to use it to defend myself. With the civilian you loosed the ability to stab. Simple as that. Also doing a few of my own cutting tests (on an old Gi top) I find the civilian snags in clothing, while the yojimbo passes through it, barely slowing down, this probably has more to do with PE vs. SE more than reverse S vs. wharncliffe though.

That said, hawkbills hold a special place in my heart, while I would never put it to the test, I'd imagine a PE harpy would cut/penetrate as well as a yojimbo/ronin, and you can still stab with it.

[riot77]

Any thoughts on making a slightly larger/longer Warencliffe blade model? Or would that put too much competition for "TOP DOG" self defence honors against the Civilian? :confused:

[Ed Schempp]

As a LEO you know the benefits of training. I'd reccommend that, for which ever blade style that you chose, that you pursue some training with the designer. James Keating, Bram Frank, Michael Janich, Kelly Worden have all spent a lifetime perfecting thier skill and thier art. Combined with the training that you have already participated; I think you will get more tools to opperate in the field with more safety...Take Care...Ed

[Episteme]

Although I am far from being any sort of authority on using a knife for defense or combat, my opinion is that the hawkbill in SE tends to get caught up in clothing, no matter how sharp. Now, that being said, I think that if you were to slash at a target that is not clothed, a SE hawkbill will cut deeper and cause nastier wound channels than a PE hawkbill. It seems that SE cuts deeper and easier through meat, yet if clothes are added to the equation, SE tends to catch.
What do I carry on a daily basis? I carry a G-10 SE Civilian in a horizontal ballistic nylon sheath in a quasi-crossdraw position to the left of my belt buckle. A Native II (SS) rides IWB up front on the right side, and a SE FRN Endura 3 is ussually right front pocket. Sometimes, I wear my Yellow Tasman Salt SE IWB in the small of my back. The Civilian and Tasman were gifts from my girlfriend, and at least one of the two can always be found on my person.
I have not had any experience with the Wharncliff blade design, but I trust that the forumites who vouch for the slashing prowess of such blades speak the truth. I have been seriously contemplating aquiring a blue yojimbo, but the only thing that keeps me from sealing the deal is that it looks so ugly! I know I will get bashed for saying this, but I just can't get past how that blade looks. I love the Civie's or Tasman's blade, and I hope that the day will never come when I will have to utilize the Civie for its intended purpose.
Mike