I got a Sebenza,but it ain't no Spydie!(RANT)

[flipe8]

Yep. I took the plunge and bought a new in box small Sebenza form another forumite on another forum. I got a couple dollars off for it and was very pleased to get it as I avoided duty as well. I figure I saved about $100 in total, once conversion was taken into account. The knife is very well thought out and very well put together. I cannot find any imperfections, but I expected that for a knife of this price. I don't think I've ever seen another knife that was more business-like in its' construction. Very nice indeed.

I also got a Spur the other day that I ordered a couple of weeks back. It doesn't have the fit and finish of the Sebbie, but I didn't expect it to at 1/5 the price. That said, it is much sharper. MUCH SHARPER. My $40 Dragonfly is MUCH SHARPER. ALL my Spydies are MUCH SHARPER. My point? At the end of the day, I don't buy my knives to be a screwdriver, prybar, scraper, hammer or any other tool other than to CUT. Yes, I have used some of my Spydies to do some of these tasks, but that wasn't what I bought it for. I bought it to cut through obects and my Spydies do it better than any other knife I have owned. Your experience might be different.

I know, I know, people will say it has to do with the edge on the Sebbie, but if I have to reprofile it to cut well, why am I spending that kind of money? In honesty, I wanted one for some time, but had difficulty spending that kind of money. on another forum, I even said I doubted a Sebenza of Strider was really worth that much more than my Delica in terms of performance. I was told by alot of Strider and Sebenza owners they were worth the extra, but if I didn't have one, I just didn't understand. Well, now I have one and I do understand. Better finish, yes. Better performance based on what a KNIFE is intended for, no.
My good friend Marc/squad314(sorry for bringing you in Marc ) said it's like Harley owners(Marc should know-he had one for many years) in that you are buying into a name, tradition, "lifestyle" and advertising. And that's fine, as long as somewhere in your mind, should you admit it or not, you understand this. And you should also know it's not about performance, certainly not in terms of performance vs. price.

I'm a proud owner of this Sebenza and will enjoy it and maybe look at getting another in the future. I also want a couple of customs, Rick Hinderer and Kevins Wilkins for starters, that I'll save up for and someday own. But I'll be doing doing it based on the knowledge I'm paying for exclusiveness, not pure performance.

And I won't let someone else tell me I just don't understand. Oh I understand, I understand fine...

[Ted]

If I were to choose what should not be perfect on an 'out-of-the-box' knife, I would choose 'sharpness'. Sharpness you can fix yourself. Other things not.
Are you sure your knife wasn't used? A lot of 'new-in-box' knives that are sold on forums have seen some use (cardboard cutting, maybe a day of carry in a pouch) before the owner decides to sell it on.

To compare your Spydie to a Sebenza. Try the following:

- Really tighten the pivot on your Spyderco - it will be locked and unusable. Do it on your Sebbie, it will stay the same.

- Close your Spyderco, grab the blade as close to the tip as you can. Wiggle it, you will see movement. Do the same on the Sebbie, there will be no movement.

- Take apart your favorite (all-screw) Spyderco, put it back together and try to achieve exact same lockup and smoothness. It can be done, but you will break the loc-tite on some screws, so it will not stay the same.
Do it with your Sebbie (see sticky-thread on CRK forum on BFC), it will be an easy job and exact same lockup and smoothness as before, and no worries about screws getting loose.

Please note, this doesn't mean Spyderco's are bad, Spyderco's are extremely good functional knives with great materials for the money.
Sebenza's just have closer tolerances and a more fool-proof construction.

Enjoy that Sebenza - it will grow on you!

Ted

[butch]

i guess its just me but if i was spending 400+ on a folder bring me a custom it will be more rare in the long run and if the fit and finish is not up to par most good makers will have no problem fixing it right up
not that a custom should have to be fixed up mind you
butch

[flipe8]

Ted ,
Thanks for the response. I stated there is no doubting the fit and finish of the Sebenza. I'm very proud to own this fine knife and won't be letting it go as many have stated to appreciate the knife, it needs to be carried and used for the long term. I can only go with the description givent ome form the forumite whom sold me the knife. He said it was new and never used. The knife was made on May23, 2006 and I got it last week. It was still unwrapped in the the box it came in. The tolerances are very good as well. No dispute there. What I'm getting at is that you are paying for that fit and finish, close tolerances and pride of owning something fairly exclusive and viewed as an industry standard. Any of these reasons are more than enough to buy one and be happy with the decision. That still doesn't automatically equate to performance in terms of a knife's primary, most would say only, real intended use. Don't get me wrong, I love this knife, but my suspicions to the performance vs. price are with merit in my mind. For the record, even if it was carried for a day and used(something I doubt), my opinion would be no different. I bought a number of new in box Spydies from individuals that showed some evidence of at least being handled, but came hair-popping just the same.

I'll keep this knife to remind me for future purchases that I'm spending for the pure enjoyment of ownership, a quality not so easily measured with a price tag.

This was more of a jovial rant by the way. It wasn't really supposed to be mean spirited. Hopefully no one takes offence.

[d.g.g]

Was it hollow-ground? Have a picture of that model?

If you Google a search for "Review of large folders" you may find the one on British Blades website which showed the Spydie outcutting all the other big expensive "S" knives. It was a great review. I'd list it for you but I've been banned from their website for questioning some of the "goofy" UK knife laws in effect over there. They are big on "banning". It seems the UK doesn't want the peasants to ask too many questions of the royals who are in charge. I think it is hilarious!

Back to the topic at hand.

I like a knife I don't have to take apart, unscrew, fiddle with. It just works well from the get-go. There is a big "cult" element with some of these knives, IMHO. I'd like to know how many of the users ever gutted and skinned a deer, rabbit, or chicken with their trusty blades. My guess is that they have rarely been out of the box and into the real world by most of the owners. Sure, there are some military and police types that use them.

For that kind of money I want at least 15 shots and at least .40S&W. If I need self defense that's my solution to the problem. I guess I'm cheap (or frugal as my Scottish ancestors would say).

[Ted]

Ted ,
Thanks for the response. I stated there is no doubting the fit and finish of the Sebenza. I'm very proud to own this fine knife and won't be letting it go as many have stated to appreciate the knife, it needs to be carried and used for the long term. I can only go with the description givent ome form the forumite whom sold me the knife. He said it was new and never used. The knife was made on May23, 2006 and I got it last week. It was still unwrapped in the the box it came in. The tolerances are very good as well. No dispute there. What I'm getting at is that you are paying for that fit and finish, close tolerances and pride of owning something fairly exclusive and viewed as an industry standard. Any of these reasons are more than enough to buy one and be happy with the decision. That still doesn't automatically equate to performance in terms of a knife's primary, most would say only, real intended use. Don't get me wrong, I love this knife, but my suspicions to the performance vs. price are with merit in my mind. For the record, even if it was carried for a day and used(something I doubt), my opinion would be no different. I bought a number of new in box Spydies from individuals that showed some evidence of at least being handled, but came hair-popping just the same.

I'll keep this knife to remind me for future purchases that I'm spending for the pure enjoyment of ownership, a quality not so easily measured with a price tag.

This was more of a jovial rant by the way. It wasn't really supposed to be mean spirited. Hopefully no one takes offence.

No offence taken, it's an interesting discussion!

Performance vs price is hard to evaluate. Performance means something different for everyone. Ergonomics come into play, blade shape etc.

Also take into account that everyone is paying full MSRP for a Sebenza, and very few people are paying full MSRP for a Spyderco.

I think I'll carry my flat-ground-hand-signed-by-Chris-Reeve-large-regular Sebenza tomorrow. :D

[Ted]

i guess its just me but if i was spending 400+ on a folder bring me a custom it will be more rare in the long run and if the fit and finish is not up to par most good makers will have no problem fixing it right up
not that a custom should have to be fixed up mind you
butch

IIRC Joe Talmadge once summarized as (not an exact quote)

A Sebenza is the standard to which all customs should be judged.

Custom vs production is a whole other discussion. I for one really don't like buying a custom. If prefer a good production, which in a case of loss I can replace easily, without a 2 year waiting list or so.

That's why I'm hoping Spyderco will make the bushcraft fixed blade as a production knife. I could get a good custom from for ex. Roger Linger, but the waiting list is just too long.

[speyederlover]

flipe8,

All my sebbies were dull out of the box. It's just how they are. You do not have to reprofile them though. Just pull out the Sharpmaker and do 20 licks on the corner of the gray stones and 20 on the flat. Then 10 to 20 on the corner of the white and 10-20 on the flat side. You'll be surprised. That's all it takes. You don't have to reprofile a thing. It will be as sharp as an spydie.

[flipe8]

I don't much like feeding my own threads, but I think I need to clarify my intended meaning. Sometimes this medium doesn't fully pass the emotion or intent as it's just balck and white. Also being that I'm not a writer, I think I missed the mark after re-reading.
If anything, I like the knife more than I thought I would. It's just not for the simple reason of it being a good knife. If that's all we were looking for, we might not even have to look at anything over an Opinel. Thankfully, this isn't where it ends for most of us. We're looking for more than just the basics. It's no different than a watch lover who wants an Omega when the Timex Ironman does the same thing.
I fully acknowledge that this addiction is very much frivolous and I'm OK with that, because from a purely functionional point of view, it's just a knife. And yes, I was somewhat twisted by the fact the knife came to me sub-par based on my standards.
Hopefully that is a bit more clear to my impressions of the knife.

BTW d.g.g., the knife is hollow-ground.

[Ted]

Hi flipe8, no worries on the writing. To me your post was pretty clear. I'm convinced a lot of Spydies will outperform a Sebenza or Strider, in strength and in sharpness. Not even mentioning the price difference.
As you said, it's the same reasoning that a simple Timex quartz watch is more accurate then for example an Omega mechanical automatic watch. But there's more then just knowing the right time, it's appreciation for fine mechanics, low tolerances and craftsmanship. :)

Did you take your sebbie apart and back together already?
Only after you do that it's really yours... :D

[ghostrider]

I find it interesting how people of different cultures equate quality, or fit and finish of a knife. I read it somewhere (I believe in one of the knife magazines, but maybe on line) that some cultures (I think Asian) expect new swords and knives to not be so sharp when new because that is something that is done by the individual user. Getting a knife with an unfinished is expected, while getting one that is finished is unacceptable.

In our society the opposite is true. This is probably due to the declining number of people who have the skill to put such an edge on a knife.

Wish I knew where I read that so I could reference it for you. Without the reference, it’s just speculation.

[HoB]

Well I have to agree flipe8 here. I recently got to handle a small Sebbie and a Mnandi and I must say I wasn't as impressed as I should have been for the price. Fit and finish are very good. Especially the finish of the Mnandi was unbelievably good. The Sebbie is really to functional looking to really tell. Part of this is the stonewashed blade, which I think doesn't help to show of the fit and finish. And yes it was smooth but not any smoother than my better Spydies really and they are a lot easier to operate, so they actually feel a lot smoother. I will admit that a lot has to do with size. I could come to love the Mnandi, if it were the size of the small Sebbie and something that is so sturdily build as the Sebbie, I would want in full size, not in small, so I will admit it is not a completely fair comparison.

As to sharpness: I agree with Ted, as long as the blade geometry is good, out of the box sharpness doesn't mean much to me, because I can take care of that myself. On the other hand, the same goes for smoothness. It doesn't take much longer to disassemble a knife, and fine-tune it to the smoothness of a Sebbie than to sharpen a dull knife. So either you expect a certain performance out of the box or you don't. As to the ease of assembly...how often do you really disassemble/assemble a knife. So if I do this twice a year (and I don't really, I usually do it once till it meets my expectations and then never again, except if I got it really, really dirty), so I could do it with the Sebbie in 5 min with the Jpydie in 15-20 min and that is including reapplying loctite (of course it still needs to cure). So it takes me 30 min longer.....per year to pay 3-4 times the price for a small knife than a full sized Spyderco would cost me....It wouldn't be my choice.

But I think these practical considerations really belie the underlying issue here: Either a knife appeals to you and in such a case it is worth nearly any price, because aside from the practical functionality you derive a certain amount of pleasure from using it which can hard be measured in $ (Sebbie: $390, pleasure from using it: priceless). Or the knife doesn't apeal to you and no matter what technical arguments you can field for the knife, they are likely not make up for the lack of enthusiasm.

[Mr Blonde]

Sebbies not scalpel sharp out of the box?! Is that a recent thing? My Sebbie (hollow ground BG-42) was -very- sharp from the box. Now, I like my Spydies a lot better these days, but I have a lot of respect for the Sebenza. Just look around, how many frame locks do you see on folders these days?

The ergos are off for me, but still a superb product. Ted's micarta small sebbie is a constant attack on my vow to stay away from folders witout round holes in the blade. :D

Wouter

[smcfalls13]

For a cheaper alternative to the Sebenza, you might try one of the Bradley Alias folders. Same titanium framelock, same stonewashed S30V blade. Similar sizes, but Bradley knives are unnervingly sharp. The tolerances may be a little less tight though.

Just something to think about.

[severedthumbs]

The Sebenza is probably one of the most perfect knives ever made. All the ones I own are extremely sharp. Not as sharp as some Spydies but just as sharp as many of them. While Spyderco is a good knife the Sebenza is just in another league all together.

[Zac]

For a cheaper alternative to the Sebenza, you might try one of the Bradley Alias folders. Same titanium framelock, same stonewashed S30V blade. Similar sizes, but Bradley knives are unnervingly sharp. The tolerances may be a little less tight though.

Just something to think about.

I'm currently selling one for a friend (not to advertise) and they are very nice knives as well. They look identical and seem to function the same.

I can't reason them or a Sabenza. I've never personally owned an Alias but I've owned 2 Sabenzas and sold them dirt cheap (as I got them 30% off retail which isn't bad). I wish I would have kept one as it is a special knife. They are great knives and quite the art work, but not what I look for as an EDC. While the fit and finish are literally perfect, I would have to case it as I would be pissed when I scratched it. I have really stopped buying "case monkies" for the most part. I like G10...nothing pretty about that, and I like something that I can beat up terribly, and then wash it with an aggressive cleaner and it is good to go. That's G10 for ya. My sig says where my mindset is now, so different strokes for different folks. Definately a nice knive and it is something people will admire. By all means, enjoy it!

[smcfalls13]

I can't reason them or a Sabenza.

It's funny, I have no problems dropping $400 on a Bali I'm going to flip, drop, bang up, damage, etc, but can't bring myself to put that same amount of money into a folder to use. Can't quite explain my reasoning there, and it just doesn't make sense.

I'll probably never bring myself to buy a Sebenza, because it's basically too nice for the redundant box cutting my Tasman does. It's like shooting rats in a junkyard with a custom rifle. It just doesn't make sense.

The Bradley folders are in the price point where I'd not be too afraid to use them, but they lack a left handed option, and I'm kinda stubborn about that(though frame locks are beginning to grow on me.)

One of these days I'll probably break down and buy one, even if it is right handed.

[jimbo@stn24]

Hello flipe8,

I think I have grasped exactly what you have posted as I have had similar thoughts in the past. I have had the exact same experience with both of my CRK offerings, one of which is a small classic Sebenza. It took some time on the Sharpmaker to get it to where it is as sharp as I care to have it, which is about a shaving sharp Spyder. I was somewhat underwhelmed at first and also had the opinion that it should have came sharper considering what I paid. Same for my Green Beret.

However, I do enjoy time out in the shop with a cold beer or Crown/Coke and puttering away with a knife or two. I certainly intend to purchase another CRK or two. I will never willingly part with either CRK knife as both are two of my favorites, but I can certainly understand the opinions of those knuts that don't care to own them. To me, they are worth what I paid. Here's hoping it grows on you as mine have on myself.

[Zac]

It's funny, I have no problems dropping $400 on a Bali I'm going to flip, drop, bang up, damage, etc, but can't bring myself to put that same amount of money into a folder to use. Can't quite explain my reasoning there, and it just doesn't make sense.

I'll probably never bring myself to buy a Sebenza, because it's basically too nice for the redundant box cutting my Tasman does. It's like shooting rats in a junkyard with a custom rifle. It just doesn't make sense.

The Bradley folders are in the price point where I'd not be too afraid to use them, but they lack a left handed option, and I'm kinda stubborn about that(though frame locks are beginning to grow on me.)

One of these days I'll probably break down and buy one, even if it is right handed.

I've never been able to reason it on a bali either...however, I would pay 300-400 for a Chinook or Manix (I better not say that too often) given that I know exactly how they will perform and that they will never fail. I do agree with you in recent years the frame lock has grown on me too.

[smcfalls13]

I've never been able to reason it on a bali either...however, I would pay 300-400 for a Chinook or Manix (I better not say that too often) given that I know exactly how they will perform and that they will never fail. I do agree with you in recent years the frame lock has grown on me too.

I think we've all got that one style of knife we'd spend ridiculous amounts of money on, and I can only assume the Sebenza fills that void for most people.

I'd like to see a $400 Chinook or Manix though, just to see what it would consist of. It's already near indesructible, adding more to it would crazy, but I'd be interested to see the result. It'd be a Striderish Spyder.