SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

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vivi
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#921

Post by vivi »

Jumpin'Spyder wrote:
Thu Mar 20, 2025 7:36 am
Hi,

I'm about to buy a Chaparral to EDC, I love this little guy...so I'm trying to decide if Plain or SE.
I've only a few serrated one from old time, like my first Syderco, the Cricket :-) but I seldom carrie it, don't know why BTW.
I know well that you guys here are very biased :-))) but you really think it could be better than the plain one?
And do you think that the Sharpmaker is right for sharpening its serrated edge?
Thanks
I find plain edge better for general EDC.

I find the things SE excels at I encounter less day to day than things PE excels at.


I've also found the main advantages of SE (Thin edge geometry, stuff slips off the edge less) are easy to obtain by sharpening a plain edged knife to a thin, coarse edge. So I get the benefits of SE without the drawbacks (snagging during many types of cuts, limited range of sharpening options).

YMMV.

Sharpmaker is wonderful for sharpening serrations either way.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#922

Post by Jumpin'Spyder »

Thanks guys!

BTW I've already ordered one Chappie SE :-)))) after reading some pages of the specific thread :-))))
Couldn't resist really...and in Europe it is damned cheap (I think it's the only Spyderco competitive with USA prices).

@Evil D @vivi Thanks for the tip, please could you tell me if I need to go with the 15 degrees angle?
Last edited by Jumpin'Spyder on Thu Mar 20, 2025 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
vivi
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#923

Post by vivi »

some SE spydies come ground at 15, others at 20. Use the sharpie trick to figure it out.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#924

Post by Evil D »

Jumpin'Spyder wrote:
Thu Mar 20, 2025 10:20 am
Thanks guys!

BTW I've already ordered one Chapie SE :-)))) after reading some pages of the specific thread :-))))
Couldn't resist really...and in Europe it is damned cheap (I think it's the only Spyderco competitive with USA prices).

@Evil D @vivi Thanks for the tip, please could you tell me if I need to go with the 15 degrees angle?


You can go with either one, on any SE it just depends on what angle the serrations are ground at and for mine I can sharpen it on the 15 degrees slots. You might choose 40 if you're seeing any chipping in the edge or just want a more durable edge.
~David
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Jumpin'Spyder
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#925

Post by Jumpin'Spyder »

@Evil D
@vivi

Thanks so much both for ultra fast reply :-)

I will use the Sharpie to assess BTW 15 or 20 I see, not 40..? Right?
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#926

Post by Evil D »

Jumpin'Spyder wrote:
Thu Mar 20, 2025 10:34 am
@Evil D
@vivi

Thanks so much both for ultra fast reply :-)

I will use the Sharpie to assess BTW 15 or 20 I see, not 40..? Right?

It's 15 or 20 degrees per side, which equals 30 or 40 degrees inclusive, you'll hear guys saying it both ways but we all just know that it's not likely that anyone is sharpening at 30-40 degrees on one side alone.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#927

Post by Jumpin'Spyder »

Got it, surely 40 degrees on one side would be bad :-)

May I assume that some strokes need to be gave to the back of the blade too, just to remove the burr ?
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#928

Post by Evil D »

Jumpin'Spyder wrote:
Thu Mar 20, 2025 10:50 am
Got it, surely 40 degrees on one side would be bad :-)

May I assume that some strokes need to be gave to the back of the blade too, just to remove the burr ?
Yes, a ratio of about 4:1 favoring the front side is best.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#929

Post by Wartstein »

Jumpin'Spyder wrote:
Thu Mar 20, 2025 10:20 am
...
BTW I've already ordered one Chappie SE :-)))) after reading some pages of the specific thread :-))))
Couldn't resist really...and in Europe it is damned cheap (I think it's the only Spyderco competitive with USA prices).
...
Right choice in my opinion!

I have both the PE and SE Chap and really like the former... but it is no match for the SE version.

The general advantages of SE over PE just apply to the Chap too: Stays sharp longer, is a bit easier to sharpen, the edge remains stronger with acute angles than it is the case with PE, it can be both "toothy" (cause of the teeth) and polished (the actual edge) at the same time, and just cuts better in my experience (again: More acute edge angle, "points" penetrate material and initiate the cut, material is grabbed and gets cut from various angles in the scallops...).

I hope you´ll report back in the "Chap SE" thread how you like it!
Top three going by pocket-time (update April 25):
- EDC: Endela SE (K390). Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10), Chaparral SE (CTS XHP)
- Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 2 SE (LC200N), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), Endela SE (K390)
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#930

Post by Jumpin'Spyder »

Evil D wrote:
Thu Mar 20, 2025 12:45 pm


Yes, a ratio of about 4:1 favoring the front side is best.
Great!! @Evil D

Thanks for all
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#931

Post by cabfrank »

There are several videos around. Most people prefer to lay the back side of the blade almost flat to the stone. SE is very easy with a Sharpmaker.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#932

Post by Jumpin'Spyder »

Wartstein wrote:
Thu Mar 20, 2025 1:19 pm

I hope you´ll report back in the "Chap SE" thread how you like it!
Sure !!!
I've read all the thread and this make me choose the SE vs. the PE; I've also found the good German deal you talked about :-)
Now the waiting for delivery started....
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#933

Post by Evil D »

I'm slowly collecting pictures of how corrugated boxes are made, I plan on making a thread about it since we all cut boxes now and then so I figured it might interest some people.

Until then though I have to share these pics. These are one of several knives that cut the sheet into the smaller sheets that get fed into another machine that die cuts and folds and prints and makes the sheet into a box.

Most of the knives are plain edge and then quite a few others are round discs but this one is serrated, and we get around 10 years of cutting from these knives and they're never sharpened. We run around 214.5 million lineal feet a year, so something like 2.1 billion lineal feet in 10 years, of which I couldn't even guess how many cuts are made but definitely thousands of times more. It's a staggering number of cuts over 10 years.

Now that sounds incredible but this is a great example of how extreme levels of edge retention can be achieved if you tune a steel, an edge type, an edge angle, and the material you plan to cut so that it all works together to maximize the life of the edge. The round discs do get sharpened as they spin and I've got pics of those that I'll share in the main thread when I make it.

I'm going to try to get one of the old blades and see if I can make something out of it. You can probably tell by the shape of the teeth, these come down straight into the sheet and sheer it clean, so the teeth perform a puncturing action and the angles of the teeth do a slicing action even though they're not moving side to side, since the edges are always cutting at an angle. The edge is chisel ground.


These are 149cm (58.66 inches) long each and there are 2 that span the width of the machine. Unfortunately I have no idea what type of steel it is and the manufacturer most likely won't tell me.

Image

Image
~David
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#934

Post by cabfrank »

Very interesting, David. Thanks. That blade could work on something giant, like the Whale Rescue. It already has the round hole! 😁
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#935

Post by Bill1170 »

Evil D wrote:
Fri Mar 21, 2025 1:44 pm
I'm slowly collecting pictures of how corrugated boxes are made, I plan on making a thread about it since we all cut boxes now and then so I figured it might interest some people.

Until then though I have to share these pics. These are one of several knives that cut the sheet into the smaller sheets that get fed into another machine that die cuts and folds and prints and makes the sheet into a box.

Most of the knives are plain edge and then quite a few others are round discs but this one is serrated, and we get around 10 years of cutting from these knives and they're never sharpened. We run around 214.5 million lineal feet a year, so something like 2.1 billion lineal feet in 10 years, of which I couldn't even guess how many cuts are made but definitely thousands of times more. It's a staggering number of cuts over 10 years.

Now that sounds incredible but this is a great example of how extreme levels of edge retention can be achieved if you tune a steel, an edge type, an edge angle, and the material you plan to cut so that it all works together to maximize the life of the edge. The round discs do get sharpened as they spin and I've got pics of those that I'll share in the main thread when I make it.

I'm going to try to get one of the old blades and see if I can make something out of it. You can probably tell by the shape of the teeth, these come down straight into the sheet and sheer it clean, so the teeth perform a puncturing action and the angles of the teeth do a slicing action even though they're not moving side to side, since the edges are always cutting at an angle. The edge is chisel ground.


These are 149cm (58.66 inches) long each and there are 2 that span the width of the machine. Unfortunately I have no idea what type of steel it is and the manufacturer most likely won't tell me.

Image

Image
It makes sense that the shear knives as pictured have sharp points, given that they execute a push cut. The bevel angle is pretty large, giving good edge stability under high forces.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#936

Post by xceptnl »

Those egde grinds are definitely giving a "toothy" edge to a toothy blade. Thanks for sharing David, looking forward to seeing more.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#937

Post by Actinolite »

When this thread first posted, I didn't have any serrated pocket knives--kitchen serrated don't count. Since then, I've purchased four. I've found some real advantages to serrated edges in select circumstances, but I haven't found them compelling for EDC. Not yet, anyway, because I haven't really used any for EDC. But I'm about to find out.

• My first was a Dragonfly 2 Salt SE. I usually keep it in my truck, where it is useful for cutting rope, etc, while not rusting. I didn't like using it as much as using my DF2 Wharncliffe k390, so I ended up not carrying it, but my truck is a good place for it.
• My second was a larger Salt 2 SE, a Wharncliffe version of the Delica. I occasionally carry it to the shore in case a rust-free knife would be useful in salt water. But the knife is awkward to carry in pocket because of its width. Usually, I keep it in my shop.
•My third was a Byrd Hawkbill. This is even more awkward to carry than the Salt 2, but it's very useful in the yard. It's easier to carry than shears for little jobs, but clearly shears are better for serious trimming/pruning jobs. Still, when in the yard, I have it with me.
• Finally, my latest is a Lil' Native SE. It's a standard shape blade, S30V. It carries exactly like the Lil' Native I've been carrying daily for months (which is currently my favorite 5th pocket/EDC). Will the serrated edges be more useful -- or as useful -- than plain edge?

I'll post my observations in a few months.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#938

Post by xceptnl »

Actinolite wrote:
Sun Mar 30, 2025 2:10 pm
When this thread first posted, I didn't have any serrated pocket knives--kitchen serrated don't count. Since then, I've purchased four. I've found some real advantages to serrated edges in select circumstances, but I haven't found them compelling for EDC. Not yet, anyway, because I haven't really used any for EDC. But I'm about to find out.

• My first was a Dragonfly 2 Salt SE. I usually keep it in my truck, where it is useful for cutting rope, etc, while not rusting. I didn't like using it as much as using my DF2 Wharncliffe k390, so I ended up not carrying it, but my truck is a good place for it.
• My second was a larger Salt 2 SE, a Wharncliffe version of the Delica. I occasionally carry it to the shore in case a rust-free knife would be useful in salt water. But the knife is awkward to carry in pocket because of its width. Usually, I keep it in my shop.
•My third was a Byrd Hawkbill. This is even more awkward to carry than the Salt 2, but it's very useful in the yard. It's easier to carry than shears for little jobs, but clearly shears are better for serious trimming/pruning jobs. Still, when in the yard, I have it with me.
• Finally, my latest is a Lil' Native SE. It's a standard shape blade, S30V. It carries exactly like the Lil' Native I've been carrying daily for months (which is currently my favorite 5th pocket/EDC). Will the serrated edges be more useful -- or as useful -- than plain edge?

I'll post my observations in a few months.
Welcome to the dark side. I for one, think you will like your journey. I definitely see the advantages and less ideal characteristics of each better by carrying one of each, daily. I use what I think will be best for any given scenario and sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong, but more often than not, I'm surprised and impressed. My SE DF2 Hawkbill may arrive from Dacks this week, I'm planning to carry it for a while without rotating it out. It's been 2 years since I lost it's predecessor.
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sal wrote: .... even today, we design a knife from the edge out!
*Landon*
vivi
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#939

Post by vivi »

Actinolite wrote:
Sun Mar 30, 2025 2:10 pm
When this thread first posted, I didn't have any serrated pocket knives--kitchen serrated don't count. Since then, I've purchased four. I've found some real advantages to serrated edges in select circumstances, but I haven't found them compelling for EDC. Not yet, anyway, because I haven't really used any for EDC. But I'm about to find out.

• My first was a Dragonfly 2 Salt SE. I usually keep it in my truck, where it is useful for cutting rope, etc, while not rusting. I didn't like using it as much as using my DF2 Wharncliffe k390, so I ended up not carrying it, but my truck is a good place for it.
• My second was a larger Salt 2 SE, a Wharncliffe version of the Delica. I occasionally carry it to the shore in case a rust-free knife would be useful in salt water. But the knife is awkward to carry in pocket because of its width. Usually, I keep it in my shop.
•My third was a Byrd Hawkbill. This is even more awkward to carry than the Salt 2, but it's very useful in the yard. It's easier to carry than shears for little jobs, but clearly shears are better for serious trimming/pruning jobs. Still, when in the yard, I have it with me.
• Finally, my latest is a Lil' Native SE. It's a standard shape blade, S30V. It carries exactly like the Lil' Native I've been carrying daily for months (which is currently my favorite 5th pocket/EDC). Will the serrated edges be more useful -- or as useful -- than plain edge?

I'll post my observations in a few months.
Nothing wrong with finding PE better for EDC.

Each edge type has their pros and cons. The pros only come into play with certain materials etc.

Serrated edges are fantastic for cutting synthetic ropes. If I had did that all day I'd probably go back to EDCing one.

For my uses I found serrated edges advantages over plain edges could be boiled down to two points:

* they come with thinner geometry from the factory

* materials slip off them less during slicing cuts


The first is a moot point since I thin out every new knife I buy, so the geometry between my plain edged V grind knives and chisel ground serrated knives is close enough it doesn't matter.

The secone point can also be made moot by using a coarser edge finish on plain edged knives.

So all I am personally left with when I carry a serrated knife as an EDC are the cons.

- Less options when it comes to sharpening.

- Incredibly time consuming to reprofile on a sharpmaker rod corner VS plain edged knives I can be dome with in two minutes on my belt sander.

- Easier to rip and tear when cutting. This is my main reason I went back to PE. Working in the food industry I can't stop and pick out bits of plastic wrap and packaging every time I slice open a bag of produce or vac-sealed steak.

- Snags more during cuts. Even freshly sharpened SE knives can be pretty snaggy depending on the material and serration aggressiveness.

So if PE works better for you, you're not alone. I tried carrying nothing but SE for a year or two and in the end found PE works best for me.
May you find peace in this life and the next.
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Evil D
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#940

Post by Evil D »

Actinolite wrote:
Sun Mar 30, 2025 2:10 pm
Will the serrated edges be more useful -- or as useful -- than plain edge?

I'll post my observations in a few months.
You really just have to find out. Serrations work awesome for me but that doesn't mean you're doing something wrong if your experiences differ. They definitely aren't for everyone and they shouldn't be. What you cut the most and how you like to sharpen and even how you use the knife play a part in all this.

When I made this thread I was learning about serration grind geometry and I was excited to share what I saw and I hoped that others would see the benefits that I saw. Now 5 years later I'm not sure if I accomplished that or just turned this into a neverending debate about which is best.
~David
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