Plain edge Salts question

[JD Spydo]

It might not be "work hardening" it could just be getting past the weakened steel because of how the factory does their final sharpening. That would be the same as any other steel.

Cliff argues that he sees no proof of work hardening in use.

Like I said before I think there is something to the "work hardened" aspect of H-1 because I have noticed some difference in my PE TASMAN after sharpening it a few times. But I couldn't say with absolute, 100% certainty that it might have been that I used the ultra-fine Sharpmaker stone to put a final edge on it which is a step above what the factory does and that could be part of the difference right there.

But to say that H-1 gets harder every time you give it a thorough sharpening>> I just don't see that much difference in the long haul because I've had my PE Tasman for some time now and have honed it a lot>> but I do see some positive results from my personal experience with it.

It's about time we see some PE & SE Hawkbills with one of the Supersteels>> why not they've given us several conventional models with various high end steels so why not a Hawkbill or specialty blade like the Ulize in a Supersteel?

I do like H-1 for a lot of reasons but I have resigned myself that I will be sharpening that blade steel more than some of the high carbon stainless blades that Spyderco offers for sure.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Question about the work-hardening aspect. Would there be any current technological way to perform an objective test, in real-time, using, say, electron or scanning probe microscopes, or testing devices of some sort, to do a control experiment test with two sets of H1 blades, to see if the work hardening aspect is there to peoples' satisfaction, or is this not yet available to be done?

I remember reading an interesting piece in a book about old-time black smithing: Some of the old smiths believed that if you used a well-made blade wrong, you could "draw the steel out", and ruin the blade. Perhaps that meant ruining the temper.

[Fred S]

All you need is a bunch of H1 pieces in the HT condition, a surface grinder and a few hardness testers. Vickers, Rockwell at least, Brinell to be interesting

[JD Spydo]

The yellow handle on most of the H-1 Salt knives is just great>> because many of them are used in a marine environment and if you drop one in the water it's a lot easier to find. Actually I like Yellow Handled folders. I can just envision a C-60 Ayoob with a Yellow G-10 handle and an H-1 blade but that bad boy would need to be in PE & SE both.

I've yet to hear any of you testify about using the H-1 Spyderhawk in plain edge??? Or the Caspian Salt for that matter?

I don't use my PE Tasman much but I have used it for peeling fruit and coring apples.

[Gimpeyhand]

I have a question about work hardening of H1 blade Steel that I m hoping someone might have some insight into. I ve seen a coil of soft copper tubing left in the back of a work van that has been rattled and banged around on rough gravel roads harden into an uncoilable copper mess over time. Would my Pacific salt thrown in the glove box for say a year harden up the same way ? Can transferred vibrations harden this steel more I mean ? I am just going by what I ve seen happen to one metal hardening and thinking hmmmm. Anyways thanks, I may be off in left field ( again ) .

[JD Spydo]

I have a question about work hardening of H1 blade Steel that I m hoping someone might have some insight into. I ve seen a coil of soft copper tubing left in the back of a work van that has been rattled and banged around on rough gravel roads harden into an uncoilable copper mess over time. Would my Pacific salt thrown in the glove box for say a year harden up the same way ? Can transferred vibrations harden this steel more I mean ? I am just going by what I ve seen happen to one metal hardening and thinking hmmmm. Anyways thanks, I may be off in left field ( again ) .

I'm not a metallurgist but I'm extremely doubtful of that. If that were the case then there would be little need for all these new Supersteels that we have been blessed with in the past 5 years or so.

And comparing a non-ferrous metal to a ferrous metal is truly an apple versus orange comparison.

[Jazz]

... but you never know. That's really interesting, Gimpeyhand. I'd like to put one in a paint shaker for a while and see.

[Surfingringo]

... but you never know. That's really interesting, Gimpeyhand. I'd like to put one in a paint shaker for a while and see.

Hehe, yeah, you never know but I'm pretty sure that's a theory I would be willing to bet against. Maybe you can just walk around shaking it in your hand. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's true so let's all start walking around shaking our salt knives like we are shaking a can of spray paint...and if anyone asks we can be like "um, duh...I'm work hardening it!" :p

[_centurio_]

I don't own any H-1 steel knives.

You could put a rather coarse edge on it, I do this with all steels which do not offer high edge retention to even it out.

BR Oliver

[Cliff Stamp]

Cliff argues that he sees no proof of work hardening in use.

I don't see it, but this isn't the basis for the argument I would make as to why it would not be expected to happen. There are two main reasons for that :

-most of what people report can be explained by other, simpler explanations

-the way steels work harden is generally through transformation of austenite into martensite

The latter happens of course, it is critical to hardening of many steels in use to ensure this happens. However it takes significantly more force of impact .

[Cliff Stamp]

Question about the work-hardening aspect. Would there be any current technological way to perform an objective test, in real-time, using, say, electron or scanning probe microscopes, or testing devices of some sort, to do a control experiment test with two sets of H1 blades, to see if the work hardening aspect is there to peoples' satisfaction, or is this not yet available to be done?

Yes, just determine the microstructure on the edge, or even simpler, do a micro-hardness test which typically cost ~$7 a shot.

[Cliff Stamp]

Like I said before I think there is something to the "work hardened" aspect of H-1 because I have noticed some difference in my PE TASMAN after sharpening it a few times.

When you see one thing change in response to another thing it is natural to assume they are related in a causal manner, but a little reflection should show this isn't a very strong argument as there are many ways why two things could happen at the same time but not actually have one cause the other.

In general, a lot of knives will show a strong response to edge retention and durability after they have been sharpened and this can often increase several times for a number of reasons :

-the angle/grit have changed
-the sharpness is improving
-over heated metal is being removed

As you sharpen a blade and get more experience with it, this experience allows you to sharpen the blade better and adjust the angle/grit to be more optomized for the work you do. These have a large effect on increasing the edge retention and durability. In addition, a lot of production knives also are power sharpened and can be left with over heated material on the edge and could simply have a large burr and sharpening them by hand removes and resolves both of these.

[Gimpeyhand]

Thanks for the information. This is something that happened many years ago when I was a plumbing apprentice. I learned never to leave any soft copper on the metal floor of the van or it would harden up, from vibration I was told. I appreciate your thoughts on blade composition and edge angle probably being the biggest factors in why the edge seems harder after much use and sharpening in H1 steel. I thought there might have been some kind of vibration as the blade edge was run down the sharpmaker maybe resulting in some form of the work hardening along it, maybe being similar. Different steels I m hooked on, but the concept of a steel hardening with use is also really interesting. I appreciate being able to ask a knife question and getting good answers from much more knife savy folks.

[JD Spydo]

Like I said before I think there is something to the "work hardened" aspect of H-1 because I have noticed some difference in my PE TASMAN after sharpening it

In general, a lot of knives will show a strong response to edge retention and durability after they have been sharpened and this can often increase several times for a number of reasons :

-the angle/grit have changed
-the sharpness is improving
-over heated metal is being removed

As you sharpen a blade and get more experience with it, this experience allows you to sharpen the blade better and adjust the angle/grit to be more optomized for the work you do. These have a large effect on increasing the edge retention and durability. In addition, a lot of production knives also are power sharpened and can be left with over heated material on the edge and could simply have a large burr and sharpening them by hand removes and resolves both of these.

The only powersharpening I've ever done with any premium blade steel has been with my TORMEK unit. For those of you who are not familiar with TORMEK Grinders they work at a very low rpm and the stone is constantly dipping itself into water and is alway wet>> thus you never overheat the metal you are working with. I mainly bought it for the woodworking tools I have but I will use it on really dinged up blalde. I've used that TORMEK unit a couple of times on H-1 and I didn't notice any difference at all.

But where I did notice a little bit of difference is when I used extremely fine and ultra-fine stones and honed and polished it intensely for a long perid of time. It did seem as though the PE H-1 blade did take on a somewhat harder edge>> but not to the degree where it would compare with S90V, D-2 or Superblue. But I did notice some difference by the way the stone abraded it.

To me the main selling point of H-1 is what it is marketed for>> to be able to endure harsh environments, salt water conditions adn to be chemical resistant as well as being relatively easy to sharpen and maintain.

[Cliff Stamp]

But where I did notice a little bit of difference is when I used extremely fine and ultra-fine stones and honed and polished it intensely for a long perid of time. It did seem as though the PE H-1 blade did take on a somewhat harder edge>> but not to the degree where it would compare with S90V, D-2 or Superblue. But I did notice some difference by the way the stone abraded it.

What do you mean it took on a harder edge, it became harder to polish it as you started polishing it?