<b>Ken</b>,
Thanks for the link. It is fitting that we remember our own fear and discrimination in hopes we never repeat this action. The mention of the the 100/442 all-Nisei unit - their patriotism, bravery, and heroism in Europe - brought a tear to these old eyes. I grew up in a small California town with a friend whose parents were interned and whose father served in this unit. This family treated me as one of their own and introduced me to Japanese culture, history, and the middle path they chose to travel by way of including me in their Buddhist ceremonies at home and later travels to the nearby temple. I have always admired the serenity and beauty of Japanese art, culture, and the people themselves.
The war was such a dichotomy that to this day many Japanese cannot believe and have not accepted that they were responsible for much of the brutality that has been reported. These are are a people whose constitution forbids participation in armed conflict except in homeland defense as the Japanese Self Defense Forces. It seems such a bold statement that they have recently voted to send supporting non-combat forces to Iraq to help there. This marks the first ever deployment deployment of JSDF personnel and the first deployment of Japanese troops since WW II.
My children were born on Okinawa and I hope to return to Japan when each them graduates to show them some of the history and the beauty of the land and the people. The hypocenter in Hiroshima is part of our planned visit.
Thanks again,
Java
A day which will live in infamy...
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java
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<b>rorschach</b>,
Thanks for the insight and the informational points. I have continued reading up on Operations Olympic and Coronet(The planned invasions of Kyushu and Honshu). The Japanese guessed we would invade Kyushu first and shifted 900,000 troops to the southern island. The Japanese homeland defense plan, Operation Ketsu-go, ramped up the defenses of Japan, their industrial output, and cancelled school to prepare to defend the homeland and the honor of the Emperor. Kyushu's population nuumbered over 10 million civilians who were ready and willing to die in the empire's defense as they did on Saipan, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. We anticipated a defensive force of only 300,000 and would have suffered far more loss of life than we did at Okinawa where we lost 13,000 souls against a defending force of 110,000 that fought with such intensity almost all (107,000) were killed along with 100,000 civilians who lost their lives.
In the weeks before Operation Olympic was approved, the War Department ordered 500,000 Purple hearts indicating we expected very heavy casualties. The Department of Defense still has 120,000 of these Purple Hearts left on hand after the Korean War, Vietnam, Just Cause, Grenada, Desrt Storm, and the Iraqi Freedom campaigns. A rather sobering reminder of what we were about to face before the decision to use atomic weapons.
Stay safe! Stay sharp!
Edited by - java on 12/9/2003 11:33:11 PM
Thanks for the insight and the informational points. I have continued reading up on Operations Olympic and Coronet(The planned invasions of Kyushu and Honshu). The Japanese guessed we would invade Kyushu first and shifted 900,000 troops to the southern island. The Japanese homeland defense plan, Operation Ketsu-go, ramped up the defenses of Japan, their industrial output, and cancelled school to prepare to defend the homeland and the honor of the Emperor. Kyushu's population nuumbered over 10 million civilians who were ready and willing to die in the empire's defense as they did on Saipan, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. We anticipated a defensive force of only 300,000 and would have suffered far more loss of life than we did at Okinawa where we lost 13,000 souls against a defending force of 110,000 that fought with such intensity almost all (107,000) were killed along with 100,000 civilians who lost their lives.
In the weeks before Operation Olympic was approved, the War Department ordered 500,000 Purple hearts indicating we expected very heavy casualties. The Department of Defense still has 120,000 of these Purple Hearts left on hand after the Korean War, Vietnam, Just Cause, Grenada, Desrt Storm, and the Iraqi Freedom campaigns. A rather sobering reminder of what we were about to face before the decision to use atomic weapons.
Stay safe! Stay sharp!
Edited by - java on 12/9/2003 11:33:11 PM
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java
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<b>"How very unfair it is for you to bring facts and a logical historical perspective to an anti-American, emotional argument. Don't you realize...it's not what you know, it's what you feel.</b> <img src=" http://community.the-underdogs.org/smil ... .gif"><img src=" http://community.the-underdogs.org/smil ... iggrin.gif">
So true, Luvbug.
Revisionists can always question and attempt to rewrite history in a different light. This may help broaden our understanding at times but too often it distorts the facts and impunes the people who actually lived the times and may no longer have the voice to defend themselves. The detailed plans for Operations Olympic and Coronet have only been declassified and released within the past 10 years. Also declassified post war analysis of Operation Ketsu-go show that we clearly underestimated Japan's preparedness and resolve to defend the Home Islands. The cost in lives to both sides in a protracted "prairie dog warfare" land battle as on Saipan, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa would have been far more horrendous. It would have devastated Japan's infrasrtucture and devestated hope for post-war recovery. It would have left battles to be fought in Manchuria and Burma and would have given us pause to defend Korea in the fifties. Perhaps the Cold War would've ended differently as well. Truman had a tough choice and he did the right thing.
Stay safe! Stay sharp! (and thanks for the support!)
So true, Luvbug.
Revisionists can always question and attempt to rewrite history in a different light. This may help broaden our understanding at times but too often it distorts the facts and impunes the people who actually lived the times and may no longer have the voice to defend themselves. The detailed plans for Operations Olympic and Coronet have only been declassified and released within the past 10 years. Also declassified post war analysis of Operation Ketsu-go show that we clearly underestimated Japan's preparedness and resolve to defend the Home Islands. The cost in lives to both sides in a protracted "prairie dog warfare" land battle as on Saipan, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa would have been far more horrendous. It would have devastated Japan's infrasrtucture and devestated hope for post-war recovery. It would have left battles to be fought in Manchuria and Burma and would have given us pause to defend Korea in the fifties. Perhaps the Cold War would've ended differently as well. Truman had a tough choice and he did the right thing.
Stay safe! Stay sharp! (and thanks for the support!)
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AllenETreat
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Java :
The saying "business is war.." is a Japanese
proverb ; it was included in Michael Crichton's book "Rising Sun" ( which was actually a deviation from his usual Sci-Fi )
Sometimes the greatest wisdom comes from those who(m) end up forgotten.
Many perish in war ( both the combatants and often civilians ) nothing can justify war, or the hatred that comes with, and after it.
"I leave you a new commandement, that you love one another, as I have loved you.."
John 13:34
AET <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
"All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke ( 1729-1797 )
The saying "business is war.." is a Japanese
proverb ; it was included in Michael Crichton's book "Rising Sun" ( which was actually a deviation from his usual Sci-Fi )
Sometimes the greatest wisdom comes from those who(m) end up forgotten.
Many perish in war ( both the combatants and often civilians ) nothing can justify war, or the hatred that comes with, and after it.
"I leave you a new commandement, that you love one another, as I have loved you.."
John 13:34
AET <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
"All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke ( 1729-1797 )
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java
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Allen,
<b>Rising Sun</b> is where I remember it from. I think of Chrichton as more of a techno-thriller/mystery writer when you consider works like <b>Disclosure, Airframe,</b> or <b>Rising Sun</b> with his main body of work but every now and again there is spike in my generalization like <b>Eaters of the Dead</b> (The 13th Warrior) or <b>The Great Train Robbery</b>.
I know Sun Tzu considered business a legitemized form of warfare and wondered if it came from the Japanese interpretation of the <b>Art of War</b> but your latest quote of John 13:34 is the best counterpoint to "A day that will live in infamy" Until such time as we all take this to heart.....
Stay safe! Stay sharp!
<b>Rising Sun</b> is where I remember it from. I think of Chrichton as more of a techno-thriller/mystery writer when you consider works like <b>Disclosure, Airframe,</b> or <b>Rising Sun</b> with his main body of work but every now and again there is spike in my generalization like <b>Eaters of the Dead</b> (The 13th Warrior) or <b>The Great Train Robbery</b>.
I know Sun Tzu considered business a legitemized form of warfare and wondered if it came from the Japanese interpretation of the <b>Art of War</b> but your latest quote of John 13:34 is the best counterpoint to "A day that will live in infamy" Until such time as we all take this to heart.....
Stay safe! Stay sharp!
Java: . Do not sit by while the likes of Hitler, Mussolini, Cousecou, Stalin, Hussein, or Bin-laden fan the embers of war into another inferno. >>>
WOW, Java! **** fine post, if I may say so! Detailed and accurate, very thorough.
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
WOW, Java! **** fine post, if I may say so! Detailed and accurate, very thorough.
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
Concerning concentration camps ("KZs", you forgot to mention Guantanamo Bay and the (at least) other two the US currently runs (I am not aware of their names).
Guantanamo Bay probably lacks the killing/working/torturing aspect of the Nazi camps, but it qualifies as a KZ in all other ways: a penal camp where political prisoners or prisoners of war are confined (usually under harsh conditions).
-Connor>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Connor, to compare Guantanamo Bay POW camp to the likes of Auschwitz, et al, is simply ludicrous.
Concentration camps were intended to completely exterminate entire races of people (genocide), while our camps provide humane conditions to POWs.
Do you think our current enemy is providing humane conditions to those who were trapped in the World Trade Centers? No. They are dead. Get with the program, son.
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
Guantanamo Bay probably lacks the killing/working/torturing aspect of the Nazi camps, but it qualifies as a KZ in all other ways: a penal camp where political prisoners or prisoners of war are confined (usually under harsh conditions).
-Connor>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Connor, to compare Guantanamo Bay POW camp to the likes of Auschwitz, et al, is simply ludicrous.
Concentration camps were intended to completely exterminate entire races of people (genocide), while our camps provide humane conditions to POWs.
Do you think our current enemy is providing humane conditions to those who were trapped in the World Trade Centers? No. They are dead. Get with the program, son.
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
Java and all,
Horrible losses have been suffered by all races and countries through modern and primative times, organized extermination of ethnic minoritys continues today, we all must try to understand the impact it has on others, it should be unfortunately easy for all human beings, we have all lost descendants at one period in our history, some more horrificaly than others, but still a loss. Until the day when sane men look soberly at each other and deceide to live and let live, war will be a reality in our lifetime and beyond.
Odin, guide my sword to eternal victory!
Horrible losses have been suffered by all races and countries through modern and primative times, organized extermination of ethnic minoritys continues today, we all must try to understand the impact it has on others, it should be unfortunately easy for all human beings, we have all lost descendants at one period in our history, some more horrificaly than others, but still a loss. Until the day when sane men look soberly at each other and deceide to live and let live, war will be a reality in our lifetime and beyond.
Odin, guide my sword to eternal victory!
a human right violation is an human right violation. period.
the fact that is a democracy or a tyrannic nation doesnt change the fact.
or, in another way, if only one innocent is killed or imprisoned or threatened, all is vain.
and i'm not a pacifist. i have jew ancestors, my grandfather got imprisoned and tortured by nazifascist, my father got shooted at the age of 14 ,and survived only because he simulated to be dead.he still at the age of 72 suffers for that trauma.
so i learned very well the value of respect for human being. and also the value of fightin' for freedom.
there's no holy war.
real reasons nowadays are mostly economics, and people is sent to die for money, not freedom. both soldiers and civie.
and this is a general rant, not aimed towards nobody.
Java, thanks for all the historycal background, i always wanted to know more on those periods.
Jiim , guantamano is not obviously aimed at exterminate a race ( believe me ,i know from my family what is a genocide) but is told from same officers that "heavy pressure methods are used, and that a good percentage is innocent people".
till now 11 are dead for "high pressure methods" ,all are convicted without any lawyers or regular jury..and so on..
it's not a KZ, but surely is not a human imprisonment.
my best to everybody.
http://www.gnm.it - graphic design
the fact that is a democracy or a tyrannic nation doesnt change the fact.
or, in another way, if only one innocent is killed or imprisoned or threatened, all is vain.
and i'm not a pacifist. i have jew ancestors, my grandfather got imprisoned and tortured by nazifascist, my father got shooted at the age of 14 ,and survived only because he simulated to be dead.he still at the age of 72 suffers for that trauma.
so i learned very well the value of respect for human being. and also the value of fightin' for freedom.
there's no holy war.
real reasons nowadays are mostly economics, and people is sent to die for money, not freedom. both soldiers and civie.
and this is a general rant, not aimed towards nobody.
Java, thanks for all the historycal background, i always wanted to know more on those periods.
Jiim , guantamano is not obviously aimed at exterminate a race ( believe me ,i know from my family what is a genocide) but is told from same officers that "heavy pressure methods are used, and that a good percentage is innocent people".
till now 11 are dead for "high pressure methods" ,all are convicted without any lawyers or regular jury..and so on..
it's not a KZ, but surely is not a human imprisonment.
my best to everybody.
http://www.gnm.it - graphic design
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AllenETreat
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- Location: The Constitution State USA
disorder :
Actually, this turned into a "rant" ; it was
a memorial for those who died December 7th 1941 after the attck on Pearl harbor.
It's now become a politcal debate.
I re-iterate : "War is ****!"
Military & civilians BOTH perish in these
extentions of politics ( if we are to take Carl Von Klauswitz' word ) Death, destruction, and general carnage mark the world during/after EVERY conflict.
There is no justification for war.
( I don't care WHO started -or- finished it!)
Remember Bastogne ; December 1944 <img src="sad.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Connor : I understand your point to an extent, Hiroshima & Nagasaki were a dark time for the people of Japan. This is why
William Tecumseh Sherman's quote has the greatest validity here.
Remember the Germans that perished on the Russian front.<img src="sad.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
If anyone thinks war isn't ****, tally the total loses on both sides ( both military & civilian ) and look at the numbers in the MILLIONS lost during WWII.
AET <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
"All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke ( 1729-1797 )
Edited by - AllenETreat on 12/12/2003 7:56:35 AM
Actually, this turned into a "rant" ; it was
a memorial for those who died December 7th 1941 after the attck on Pearl harbor.
It's now become a politcal debate.
I re-iterate : "War is ****!"
Military & civilians BOTH perish in these
extentions of politics ( if we are to take Carl Von Klauswitz' word ) Death, destruction, and general carnage mark the world during/after EVERY conflict.
There is no justification for war.
( I don't care WHO started -or- finished it!)
Remember Bastogne ; December 1944 <img src="sad.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Connor : I understand your point to an extent, Hiroshima & Nagasaki were a dark time for the people of Japan. This is why
William Tecumseh Sherman's quote has the greatest validity here.
Remember the Germans that perished on the Russian front.<img src="sad.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
If anyone thinks war isn't ****, tally the total loses on both sides ( both military & civilian ) and look at the numbers in the MILLIONS lost during WWII.
AET <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
"All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke ( 1729-1797 )
Edited by - AllenETreat on 12/12/2003 7:56:35 AM
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DDM_Reaper20
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AllenETreat:
Thanks for your post. My father once told me that his father, upon leave from the front in Winter '42, tore down a poster showing Hitler, stomped on it, tore it to pieces, and screamed abuse at Hitler. My father (6 years old) was taken aback by his father's ferocity.
To this day, he still remembers this. Had he not kept his mouth shut, unpleasant things could have happened to his father for that temper fit.--
War on the Eastern front was **** for both sides. The Russians were, understandably so, utterly furious when they finally took the war into Germany.
I've heard from my grandparents that the kindest occupiers were, for some reason or other, the English, followed by the Americans.
I think all here are right -- let us never forget what people are capable of when ideologies are involved.
Stay sharp, DDM_Reaper20
Thanks for your post. My father once told me that his father, upon leave from the front in Winter '42, tore down a poster showing Hitler, stomped on it, tore it to pieces, and screamed abuse at Hitler. My father (6 years old) was taken aback by his father's ferocity.
To this day, he still remembers this. Had he not kept his mouth shut, unpleasant things could have happened to his father for that temper fit.--
War on the Eastern front was **** for both sides. The Russians were, understandably so, utterly furious when they finally took the war into Germany.
I've heard from my grandparents that the kindest occupiers were, for some reason or other, the English, followed by the Americans.
I think all here are right -- let us never forget what people are capable of when ideologies are involved.
Stay sharp, DDM_Reaper20