Sharpening S30V and XHP experience

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Cliff Stamp
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#21

Post by Cliff Stamp »

jackknifeh wrote:This is the only comparison I did and I hadn't planned on doing it which is another reason my opinion is somewhat vague.
In this case what you are seeing is most likely just random based on the nature of the steels and the initial state.

Image

Here is a shot of S30V, now imagine drawing a line through that. The line will be the edge of the knife. It should be clear that if you draw multiple lines you could get differences in how much carbide ends up on the edge and this will effect how the edge responds in sharpening. This can be really dramatic on non-pm steels as they look like this :

Image

Just draw a line through the top vs the middle.
Since I did get the Chaparral I've "had a feeling" XHP held an edge longer than S30V but that "feeling" may have been "just in my head" as BH suggested. Maybe my head needs some testing??? :)
The placebo effect and similar conclusion biases are extremely strong, so much so if you don't account for them they will dominate your results. This happens even if you are aware of them, it doesn't matter, they happen below the conscious level as they are just part of the fundamental ways we are able to make very rapid decisions which was necessary for early survival. Everyone is so biased, if you don't think you are it just means you are delusional as well as biased. The reason that experimentalist methodology can be intricate is to try to minimize these, no one does blinding and random sampling because it is inherently attractive, it is just without doing it you don't actually know if you are seeing an actual result or just what you "want" to see.

I had a kitchen knife for example which I had found difficult to sharpen to a very high level (shave above the skin, push cuts newsprint 1" from the point of hold, etc.). Now initially this was likely true because the edge was damaged as-boxed as they often are for numerous reasons. However it didn't respond well even after subsequent use but before I wrote it off an formed that conclusion I needed to check if it was nothing more than my perception of that knife forcing the conclusion. This sounds silly but your brain works like that. You can find something difficult simply because you have convinced yourself that it is that way. I was later able to sharpen it to the same high level easily with nothing more than a change in mindset. This kind of problem is also eliminated much more rigorously by blinding in experiments.

Overall though, have fun and enjoy what you are doing because if you don't then you are not going to continue doing it. The only real constraint in learning is that one question I noted in the above, as long as you keep asking it you will learn and the minute you stop asking it you stop learning.
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jackknifeh
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#22

Post by jackknifeh »

Cliff Stamp wrote: Overall though, have fun and enjoy what you are doing because if you don't then you are not going to continue doing it. The only real constraint in learning is that one question I noted in the above, as long as you keep asking it you will learn and the minute you stop asking it you stop learning.

Cliff, I'm going to have to live with a certain amount of ignorance when it comes to evaluating different things about knife edges on different steels that have been sharpened by different type stones, etc. I haven't the energy to "study" the stuff you know that results in very accurate test results and information. Nothing personal and I respect your knowledge but compared to taking night classes or correspondence courses or enrolling at MIT, I'd rather shoot myself in the face with a shotgun. :) I do look forward to reading your posts and getting as much information as I can. So keep it coming. :D I worked on computers for about 10 years and one of our customers was a college that taught medicine of some types. I was working on a professor's computer and had a few minutes to read a bit of one of his books that was open on his desk. I feel the same sometimes reading your posts as I did when reading that book. Being completely out of the field of course I had no idea what info was there even though I could read every word. :) You are talking about knives though so I do enjoy your input even if I don't get it all.

Jack
eric m.
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#23

Post by eric m. »

jackknifeh wrote:Cliff, I'm going to have to live with a certain amount of ignorance when it comes to evaluating different things about knife edges on different steels that have been sharpened by different type stones, etc. I haven't the energy to "study" the stuff you know that results in very accurate test results and information. Nothing personal and I respect your knowledge but compared to taking night classes or correspondence courses or enrolling at MIT, I'd rather shoot myself in the face with a shotgun. :) I do look forward to reading your posts and getting as much information as I can. So keep it coming. :D I worked on computers for about 10 years and one of our customers was a college that taught medicine of some types. I was working on a professor's computer and had a few minutes to read a bit of one of his books that was open on his desk. I feel the same sometimes reading your posts as I did when reading that book. Being completely out of the field of course I had no idea what info was there even though I could read every word. :) You are talking about knives though so I do enjoy your input even if I don't get it all.

Jack
Yeah! Thank you Cliff for your devotion to your craft! Most of us do not have the time, nor the desire to follow in your footsteps! We much prefer to follow in the path of others who can be trusted! :)
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#24

Post by chuck_roxas45 »

eric m. wrote:yeah! Thank you cliff for your devotion to your craft! Most of us do not have the time, nor the desire to follow in your footsteps! We much prefer to follow in the path of others who can be trusted! :)
:d:d:d
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jackknifeh
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#25

Post by jackknifeh »

Cliff Stamp wrote: The first thing you have to ask yourself is :

-what question are you trying to answer
What do I really want to know about the two steels regarding edge retention.? I hadn't really thought about it specifically. My initial thougth was to find out which steel, with conditions being equal would hold an edge longer. Then I was re-reading Cliff's post and gave this question a little more thought. Truth be told I never care which of any blade steels is better than another. What I really want to know is "Am I satisfied enough with a blade steel to carry it and use it?". It doesn't matter if ZDP-189 will stay sharp longer than VG-10. Both steels are good enough for me to buy, carry and use a knife with either. The same is true for S30V and XHP. I just cut about 120" of the same type of cardboard with my Sage4 and the Chaparral. Before I started I sliced phone book paper and both sliced the paper with very little resistance felt. After the very small cutting sample I cut phone book paper again. I performed 10 slices each with both knives. The Chaparral with XHP felt the same as it did before the cutting. The Sage4 with S30V felt the same also except on two out of the ten slices the edge tore the paper. I looked at the edges under a 60x loupe and on the Sage4 there was some very light damage in the center of the blade. On the Chaparral there was some damage in the center of the blade also but not as bad as one specific spot on the Sage4 edge. On the Sage4 I initially found the spot that tore the paper by using the tip of my thumbnail. Comparing the middle of each edge with about 3/8" of the edges at the heel and tip I could see that the parts of the edge that hadn't cut anything still looked smooth. So, given this limited test it looks like (but isn't proven) the XHP may hold up a little longer than S30V at approx. a 24 Degree edge angle. Since I finished the edge free hand intending on giving it a little convex sharp I'm sure the very edge is higher than 24 degrees. But, "which steel is better?" Is that the question I wanted answered? NO IT IS NOT. What I proved to myself beyond a shadow of a doubt is that both steels are very good and will keep me happy on any knife I may want to carry. Even though I could tell a little difference in the edge when magnified to 60x this didn't effect the cutting performance at all for everyday needs. One tiny spot that causes an edge to tear phone book paper 2 out of 10 times is nothing.

Both steels are plenty good enough that I don't care which is better. If there were two identical knives except for one has S30V and the other has XHP and they also have different handle colors, I would choose the knife based on which color handle I wanted. :)

I said it "looked like" XHP might hold up better. The quality of my testing and the results being so close I figure the next test identical to this one may result in just the opposite result. If so, then I 'd need to go "best out of 3" tests. :) So me deciding to lower the edge angles on these two knives and not planing on testing anything ended up with me believing that XHP requires a few more strokes than S30V to attain the same amount of steel removal. Also, XHP has just a little better edge retention. But if that is wrong i still KNOW one thing. Both blade steels are top shelf in quality on Spyderco knives. Another company may heat treat the steels differently.

The knives I used all my life prior to my decision to "buy better quality knives" would have shown a lot more loss in cutting performance. So my original desire to have "one good knife" that would stay sharp longer has been satisfied. :spyderco:

But maybe my knives are now performing better because I can now leave the edge in better shape after sharpening than I have been most of my knife.

Another conclusing is that since accurate testing requires a lot more than I can do or am willing to spend money and/or time to get reliable results I give up testing. Whatever differences I see (or think I see) during everyday use is going to be accurate enough for me..

I think that professional knife sharpeners or anyone who has been sharpening for many years and has used many different type stones have enough experience that I can trust what they say about a given stone. If they say one cuts faster than another I believe it even if they didn't count strokes. If someone who has been cutting and boning meat for several years says they think blade steel "a" stays sharp longer than blade steel "b" I believe in their experience being good enough to be trusted. Trusted at the level I care about anyway. So this adds another question to Cliff's question of "what question do I want answered?". How much accuracy do I care about.

Jack

Jack
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chuck_roxas45
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#26

Post by chuck_roxas45 »

Jack, I do not believe that you should give up "testing". For one thing, it is fun to do. For another thing, it will satisfy our curiosity and every test will add at least one data point to our personal experiece. A lot of data points from a lot of people pointing to one conclusion may be an indication of what the "real" capability of a steel is even if the "tests" and experiences were not conducted with really rigorous laboratory standards. I would accept the results of a lot of people over a long period of time over a few "tests" conducted by one person.

If I wanted my "tests" to be the only accepted tests, I would find ways to fault the results and experiences of everyone that had different data from mine. :)
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#27

Post by me2 »

Just for fun, Jackknifeh, try your test again and see if the results switch. I am not familiar with the XHP steel, but when testing some H1 vs. 420HC, my results swapped back and forth a couple of times. I'm pretty sure I know why now, but it took more than one try to figure it out.
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#28

Post by eric m. »

me2 wrote:Just for fun, Jackknifeh, try your test again and see if the results switch. I am not familiar with the XHP steel, but when testing some H1 vs. 420HC, my results swapped back and forth a couple of times. I'm pretty sure I know why now, but it took more than one try to figure it out.
If you're not bald already you will be! Personal satisfaction is...personal! :)
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#29

Post by Cliff Stamp »

jackknifeh wrote:What I really want to know is "Am I satisfied enough with a blade steel to carry it and use it?".
This is exactly what I meant by what question you were looking to answer. It might not seem like a large distinction but what you have done is defined the significance level and that is critical.

All steels are different, every VG-10 blade that Spyderco makes will not be identical in any property however the differences are so small that it would be very different to measure it.

A question such as "What is the difference?" is very open ended but a question such as "Would I see a difference in daily use?" is very specific and it is also extremely easy to determine.

If you just carry the two knives and note how often you sharpen them and make a few notes on when you were satisfied or displeased with the performance and compare it should be easy to determine if the difference is significant to you.

The critical part is to not jump to a conclusion on if that difference is significant in general.
So, given this limited test it looks like (but isn't proven) the XHP may hold up a little longer than S30V at approx. a 24 Degree edge angle.
The random influences in cutting and sharpening would be larger than the difference you have seen so at this point I would be hesitant to form a conclusion as it is likely as me2 noted that you could be seeing noise.
I think that professional knife sharpeners or anyone who has been sharpening for many years and has used many different type stones have enough experience that I can trust what they say about a given stone.

Most people, professional or not, do not use methods which eliminate bias and thus the conclusions they form are biased. It doesn't matter if you do an experiment 1000 times, if it is biased then you just got a wrong result 1000 times.

When Roman Landes started talking about power sharpening a number of very experienced and professional knife sharpeners immediately used their "experience" to show he was wrong.

Landes and others provided physics based arguments to refute them, did demonstrations to refute the arguments and provided materials data. A lot of makers switched to using coolant, some "professionals" however ignored all of the science as they could not admit they were wrong.

It is extremely easy to go onto YT, find a professional who works with knives and watch them sharpening a knife and realize it has serious issues which will effect not only how the stone works but also how they judge edge retention and edge durability.

People who do very heavy stropping for example on soft abrasives can easily have very poor opinions of steels like 3V and find them more brittle than a steel such as A2. This isn't reflective of the properties of 3V vs A2 it is simply the fact that 3V due to the high vanadium content does not respond well to sharpening on very soft abrasives.

It really isn't that hard to do a proper experiment, as I have said there is only one question you really need to ask and try to answer "What could cause my conclusion to be wrong?" . The best advice is simply to look for as much evidence as you can before forming a conclusion and never really close the book and always be open to it being completely wrong.
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