Dijos: I keep hearing “you need training if you want to use a Gunting” Do other knives have magic powers that make you able to use them without any training?>>>
Actually, this is a good point. And I'd have to say, at least in part, my answer to your question is: Yes.
Two points:
1. Take a 100-pound woman, whom you wouldn't normally consider very much of a threat at all. Now, give here a large butcher knife, snatch her small child up, and what do you have? A momma bear who's well-armed, and who's about to carve you up like a Thanksgiving turkey.
2. I've seen many, many people use knives on each other (some VERY effectively), and not a single one had ever had one knife lesson in their entire life. Not a one.
How did they make it work?
Well, their circumstances were a bit desperate; they were in prison.
They displayed determination and a will to win, coupled with brute strength, which can sometimes overcome good technique. In short, the brutal will to kill is often enough; technique takes a back seat.
How difficult is it to hold the knife in an icepick grip and stab the living **** out of someone? From experience, it's very easy and very effective. Very simple, too.
How do you stop it? You don't, because if your attacker is smart and determined, he's likely tagged you before you know what's going on, especially if you neglected to be vigilant.
Yes, to me, a knife is rather like that magic wand. Don't get me wrong, it does not make one invincible. Just a lot more dangerous.
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
Gunting vs Ronin vs Karambit????????
Jim-
I didn't mean that a knife is ineffective; your points are well taken. I hear a lot of talk on the web about how this or that knife is better because of this or that. Realistically, I would rather have any quality knife than none at all. BUT Attacking with a knife is much easier than defending yourself with one. Great discussion, all. Keep it up.--Joe
I didn't mean that a knife is ineffective; your points are well taken. I hear a lot of talk on the web about how this or that knife is better because of this or that. Realistically, I would rather have any quality knife than none at all. BUT Attacking with a knife is much easier than defending yourself with one. Great discussion, all. Keep it up.--Joe
WOW!!! I did not think I would get this much help!
Again thank you so much for all your opinions and suggestions. I do feel overwhelmed by all the knowledge that all of you have. It is an honour to have some of THE most respected knife instructors answering my thread on which is best. I can see it is all in the eye of the beholder. I wrote along time ago that I would not want to be on the business end of a Ladybug let alone a Civilian. I think that holds true with any of the three I listed.
I notice the Karambit does not have much of a following here, and seems to be the harder of the bunch to train with. I picked one up because I could not turn down a good deal. If anything I will have the PE hawkbill folder I alawys wanted. I can't follow its thought process. Do you strike with it while you spin it, as in hooking some"thing" with the hawkbill blade?
As to the 2 more popular of the two: I have a PE Gunting. I bought it because I collect Spydies, and have found it to be an excellent EDC. I would like to get the tapes for it someday. The Ronin to me seems to be easiest to use but I have alot of small fixed blades already. Other than the legality, I don't know why you would only carry a 3 inch FB when you could be carrying a Perrin, CQB, Seal Pup....the list goes on. I am not restricted to what I can and can't carry. As long as it is not concealled. So in truth I could walk down the street with a bowie. But that is not the point of my thread.
I am going to check out as much info as possible and hopefully one day I can take an MBC course. For now I am going to look into the videos and literature as much as possible. I really appreciate all of your help. It is quite the thread, thanks again and Take Care!!
P.S. What jim said made it very simple for me "Don't try to get fancy and intricate with the technique; use simple, powerful moves because they utilize gross motor skills, which will be what you utilize under the adrenaline dump of a deadly situation."
"everything else is just a jeep"
Again thank you so much for all your opinions and suggestions. I do feel overwhelmed by all the knowledge that all of you have. It is an honour to have some of THE most respected knife instructors answering my thread on which is best. I can see it is all in the eye of the beholder. I wrote along time ago that I would not want to be on the business end of a Ladybug let alone a Civilian. I think that holds true with any of the three I listed.
I notice the Karambit does not have much of a following here, and seems to be the harder of the bunch to train with. I picked one up because I could not turn down a good deal. If anything I will have the PE hawkbill folder I alawys wanted. I can't follow its thought process. Do you strike with it while you spin it, as in hooking some"thing" with the hawkbill blade?
As to the 2 more popular of the two: I have a PE Gunting. I bought it because I collect Spydies, and have found it to be an excellent EDC. I would like to get the tapes for it someday. The Ronin to me seems to be easiest to use but I have alot of small fixed blades already. Other than the legality, I don't know why you would only carry a 3 inch FB when you could be carrying a Perrin, CQB, Seal Pup....the list goes on. I am not restricted to what I can and can't carry. As long as it is not concealled. So in truth I could walk down the street with a bowie. But that is not the point of my thread.
I am going to check out as much info as possible and hopefully one day I can take an MBC course. For now I am going to look into the videos and literature as much as possible. I really appreciate all of your help. It is quite the thread, thanks again and Take Care!!
P.S. What jim said made it very simple for me "Don't try to get fancy and intricate with the technique; use simple, powerful moves because they utilize gross motor skills, which will be what you utilize under the adrenaline dump of a deadly situation."
"everything else is just a jeep"
Hi Qship. We're working on it now. Still tweaking. Sorry it's talking so long guys, we want it to be right. We really like the design and we believe reliability is job #1 in an MBC piece.
we'd like the quality, reliability and performance to be on a par with the Gunting (Which Bram knows has been challenging). We'd also like to do a trainer at the same time or shortly following the live.
Hi CKE. these guys are the most helpful group of MBCers I've had the opportunity to observe and work with. Real stuff and no BS.
sal
we'd like the quality, reliability and performance to be on a par with the Gunting (Which Bram knows has been challenging). We'd also like to do a trainer at the same time or shortly following the live.
Hi CKE. these guys are the most helpful group of MBCers I've had the opportunity to observe and work with. Real stuff and no BS.
sal
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jim_l_clifton
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Jim,
This seems strange,Jim addressing Jim!Good point about being unaware, most get hit & it's too late! ALL three of these blades work well on keeping concealed before striking! LEO'S ,kept saying,man you can use the G "before they even know it's there! Showed the CRMPIT ,as an impact tool, then kicked it up a notch & demoed kenetic opening on the body!!ALL of these ARE to be used close & THAT's where "I" like to be!!I like to have something I can use,is nicely concealed & works everytime,as I said ,personal pref. BUT I ain't giving up my G!
Jim,thanks for your input!
Jim
This seems strange,Jim addressing Jim!Good point about being unaware, most get hit & it's too late! ALL three of these blades work well on keeping concealed before striking! LEO'S ,kept saying,man you can use the G "before they even know it's there! Showed the CRMPIT ,as an impact tool, then kicked it up a notch & demoed kenetic opening on the body!!ALL of these ARE to be used close & THAT's where "I" like to be!!I like to have something I can use,is nicely concealed & works everytime,as I said ,personal pref. BUT I ain't giving up my G!
Jim,thanks for your input!
Jim
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donutsrule
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- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: San Diego
"Qship,
Re-read your first paragraph,"THAT" is the G!That's "one" reason I like it! Your view of one must learn knife fighting first before learning the G is in error!TO GUOTE A FRIEND,"THIS AIN'T ROCKET SCIENCE"! What the G teaches is self defence!The concept is effective! I am working at a disadvantage here, you are judging something you have no experince with,take a seminar or view the tapes,THEN we will see how you feel! This is NOT a case of which is better,the G or the R!!Trust me!! THEY both work,it just comes down to personal preference!
Jim "
It comes down to the quote, "There are no dangerous weapons, only dangerous men."
I am advocating skill at arms, not skill with a particular weapon.
1) If you just use basic knife fighting techniques with a Gunting, it does not give you an advantage because you do not use the Gunting's distinctive features.
2) In order to gain an advantage with a Gunting, you need to use Gunting specific techniques, which means you have to be using a Gunting. My suggestion to gentleman was that he first learn the general case and then, if he wants to expand his skills, to study a specific knife. That way, if he doesn't have a Gunting (or a kerambit) handy when push comes to shove, he can get by with what he does have.
While the Ronin has a better point and better edge geometry than most knives, it is a pure knife, not a claw and not a combination knife and impact weapon. Of the three edged weapons mentioned, skill with the Ronin is most likely to transfer to any common knife.
Qship
Re-read your first paragraph,"THAT" is the G!That's "one" reason I like it! Your view of one must learn knife fighting first before learning the G is in error!TO GUOTE A FRIEND,"THIS AIN'T ROCKET SCIENCE"! What the G teaches is self defence!The concept is effective! I am working at a disadvantage here, you are judging something you have no experince with,take a seminar or view the tapes,THEN we will see how you feel! This is NOT a case of which is better,the G or the R!!Trust me!! THEY both work,it just comes down to personal preference!
Jim "
It comes down to the quote, "There are no dangerous weapons, only dangerous men."
I am advocating skill at arms, not skill with a particular weapon.
1) If you just use basic knife fighting techniques with a Gunting, it does not give you an advantage because you do not use the Gunting's distinctive features.
2) In order to gain an advantage with a Gunting, you need to use Gunting specific techniques, which means you have to be using a Gunting. My suggestion to gentleman was that he first learn the general case and then, if he wants to expand his skills, to study a specific knife. That way, if he doesn't have a Gunting (or a kerambit) handy when push comes to shove, he can get by with what he does have.
While the Ronin has a better point and better edge geometry than most knives, it is a pure knife, not a claw and not a combination knife and impact weapon. Of the three edged weapons mentioned, skill with the Ronin is most likely to transfer to any common knife.
Qship
Jim Clifton: Jim,thanks for your input!
Jim>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jim,
It was my pleasure. Ha ha, there are too many Jims here! I should have used my last initial.
There are two varieties of knife attacks that I've been able to personally differentiate thus far:
1. Pre-Planned. This is, basically, a premeditated "hit", or an assasination. Most of the knifings/stabbings that I've witnessed or seen the results of have been of this variety. Simply put, the attacker(s) decide to take out a target and plan it out.
In the prison where I work, especially in the earlier days, inmates often use weapons to fight with, ie. knives or blunt weapons. They play for keeps.
2. Spontaneous. Totally unplanned response to an attack, or the spur-of-the-moment decision to attack a target. During this type of attack, things don't often go as well, since it's not pre-planned, body position might not be optimal, and surprise is not always achieved.
One tactic that inmates have been know to use when carrying out a "hit", or a "contract" killing is to wait until a mass movement in the Main Corridor of the prison, when there are hundreds of inmates around. Then, out of the crowd, five or six guys, all armed with knives, strike the target at once. It only takes a few seconds to land dozens of blows and melt back into the crowd, leaving a dying man and no witnesses.
I realize, as well, that my knife experience is really limited to a prison setting. I'm sure some of the things I've seen are totally peculiar to a correctional setting. Still, other details seem relavant to "the street". I guess we have to kind of sift and sort through to get what's relavant to our situations.
And once again, I've run amok at the keyboard. :-)
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
Jim>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jim,
It was my pleasure. Ha ha, there are too many Jims here! I should have used my last initial.
There are two varieties of knife attacks that I've been able to personally differentiate thus far:
1. Pre-Planned. This is, basically, a premeditated "hit", or an assasination. Most of the knifings/stabbings that I've witnessed or seen the results of have been of this variety. Simply put, the attacker(s) decide to take out a target and plan it out.
In the prison where I work, especially in the earlier days, inmates often use weapons to fight with, ie. knives or blunt weapons. They play for keeps.
2. Spontaneous. Totally unplanned response to an attack, or the spur-of-the-moment decision to attack a target. During this type of attack, things don't often go as well, since it's not pre-planned, body position might not be optimal, and surprise is not always achieved.
One tactic that inmates have been know to use when carrying out a "hit", or a "contract" killing is to wait until a mass movement in the Main Corridor of the prison, when there are hundreds of inmates around. Then, out of the crowd, five or six guys, all armed with knives, strike the target at once. It only takes a few seconds to land dozens of blows and melt back into the crowd, leaving a dying man and no witnesses.
I realize, as well, that my knife experience is really limited to a prison setting. I'm sure some of the things I've seen are totally peculiar to a correctional setting. Still, other details seem relavant to "the street". I guess we have to kind of sift and sort through to get what's relavant to our situations.
And once again, I've run amok at the keyboard. :-)
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
Another point I want to make is the human body's ability to absorb damage. It never ceases to amaze me how much abuse people can take and still continue to function.
Why bring this up? Well, we need to remember that merely making the cut and/or stab does not end our troubles from an attacker.
I've personally observed an inmate take four stabs through the back and keep functioning/fighting. I was standing about two feet away when the man was stabbed (the knife went right past my head, into his back). The blade was nearly a foot long, and pierced both the man's shoulder blades and continued through both lungs, also grazing his heart.
He survived the stabbing, and I came through with clean underwear, though it was a close one. My point is that, after being stabbed, he managed to pick up a metal lid from a food pan to ward off further blows from the attacker while running around the food cart.
His lungs quickly filled with blood, and we got him out of there and then dealt with the knife-wielding madman.
Other inmates I've seen were not as lucky; I've seen a number who did not survive their stabbings. It might also be helpful to note that most of those killed died from stab wounds, rather than slash wounds.
Thus endeth the lesson...
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
Why bring this up? Well, we need to remember that merely making the cut and/or stab does not end our troubles from an attacker.
I've personally observed an inmate take four stabs through the back and keep functioning/fighting. I was standing about two feet away when the man was stabbed (the knife went right past my head, into his back). The blade was nearly a foot long, and pierced both the man's shoulder blades and continued through both lungs, also grazing his heart.
He survived the stabbing, and I came through with clean underwear, though it was a close one. My point is that, after being stabbed, he managed to pick up a metal lid from a food pan to ward off further blows from the attacker while running around the food cart.
His lungs quickly filled with blood, and we got him out of there and then dealt with the knife-wielding madman.
Other inmates I've seen were not as lucky; I've seen a number who did not survive their stabbings. It might also be helpful to note that most of those killed died from stab wounds, rather than slash wounds.
Thus endeth the lesson...
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
Dijos: Jim-
I didn't mean that a knife is ineffective; your points are well taken. I hear a lot of talk on the web about how this or that knife is better because of this or that. Realistically, I would rather have any quality knife than none at all. >>>
Dijos, we're definitely on the same page here. And I agree; many people are so caught up in the technical debates, ie. knife vs. knife, 9mm vs. .45, martial art vs. martial art, etc. ad nauseum.
I feel that people so caught up in these debates are missing the entire, bigger picture. What's more, it seems that most of those caught up in such debates have little actual, real-world experience.
Great post!
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
I didn't mean that a knife is ineffective; your points are well taken. I hear a lot of talk on the web about how this or that knife is better because of this or that. Realistically, I would rather have any quality knife than none at all. >>>
Dijos, we're definitely on the same page here. And I agree; many people are so caught up in the technical debates, ie. knife vs. knife, 9mm vs. .45, martial art vs. martial art, etc. ad nauseum.
I feel that people so caught up in these debates are missing the entire, bigger picture. What's more, it seems that most of those caught up in such debates have little actual, real-world experience.
Great post!
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
Indeed, the hottest debaters on issues such as the best item of equipment, or the "ultimate" this or the "superior" that are quite often theoretical pontificators and keyboard commandos, and not the guys actually performing the job. (I am mostly referring to another forum, with the initials "BF!"<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> ) I like the Ronin and Gunting for their versatility, not their limitations, and while the karambit is specialized, it is capable of doing such wonderful things that I have started the journey along the path to learn how to use it. There is no "versus" involved with these knives, as there is no conflict, in my mind, with the teachings of Michael Janich, Bram Frank, and Steve Tarani. The versatility of the Ronin and Gunting allow them to work well with stuff I have recently been learning from "Southnarc" also.
Edited by - Rex G on 9/6/2003 3:34:34 PM
Edited by - Rex G on 9/6/2003 3:34:34 PM
why is the gunting all the rage?? im looking at this thing going "why is that insanely huge hump right there, what could its purpose possibly be?" I preactice MBC with the Impala and Guthook. Thats not what it was designed for but if you need to defend yourself, a super sharp skinning knife with a sharpened guthook will do the job. ALWAYS sharpen any self defense knife to RAZOR. In the words of a great knifemaker....you want it as sharp as you can get it, so you can do the most amount of damage, in the least ammount of time.
I am not sure what you mean by a hump, but the ramp is for kinetic opening, and if the knife is closed, the ramp is used for presssure point and striking techniques. That is a major factor in the design of the Gunting; it is a defensive weapon even while closed. Some people believe in that concept, and others do not.
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jim_l_clifton
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