Tuff not so Tuff...

[Sht]

I just want to say that I think there is nothing wrong with posting issues or problems with a knife. Just don't be a Dbag about it & everyone can learn something. In this case sal has posted that he'd like to have the knife sent in & that's about as much as anyone could ask for. I hope the OP sends it in & gets taken care of, then post an update in this thread so down the line we can again learn something about how it was addressed.

[KardinalSyn]

I just want to say that I think there is nothing wrong with posting issues or problems with a knife. Just don't be a Dbag about it & everyone can learn something. In this case sal has posted that he'd like to have the knife sent in & that's about as much as anyone could ask for. I hope the OP sends it in & gets taken care of, then post an update in this thread so down the line we can again learn something about how it was addressed.

I was thinking about that. I did not see a post where it was confirmed that the knife was sent in to W&R. Looking forward to an update.

[nullity]

If the Tuff is that wrong of a tool to be using for chopping off a couple of relatively small branches than that's fine, but it should probably get different name.

I think he means that any normally-sized folder is poor choice for chopping.
Saying the Tuff is the wrong tool for the job is not the same as "the Tuff isn't tough".

[JB3]

I'm guessing there are some folks who would disagree with that (as a general statement). Chris Reeves, Mick Strider, Ernest Emerson, Ed Schempp, etc.

Chris Reeves, Mick Strider, Ernest Emerson, Ed Schempp ... JB3 ... :)

[Cliff Stamp]

I think he means that any normally-sized folder is poor choice for chopping.

People are generally made out of things harder than some small branches so any MBC related folder would have to be able to handle that. However in reality even that is needed there are lots of very inexpensive folders popular with guys who do wood work / camping etc. and they are routinely used for that. I have even done that with the Douk Douk.

[nullity]

People are generally made out of things harder than some small branches so any MBC related folder would have to be able to handle that. However in reality even that is needed there are lots of very inexpensive folders popular with guys who do wood work / camping etc. and they are routinely used for that. I have even done that with the Douk Douk.

Just because the folding knife is strong enough, doesn't mean the knife has enough mass, proper balance, ergonomics, blade geometry, length etc for useful chopping.

I don't understand the logic behind "if it's tough enough to survive the job, then it's the right tool for the job."

[chuck_roxas45]

Just because the folding knife is strong enough, doesn't mean the knife has enough mass, proper balance, ergonomics, blade geometry, length etc for useful chopping.

I don't understand the logic behind "if it's tough enough to survive the job, then it's the right tool for the job."

Whether or not it's the right tool for the job, it still should be tough enough to chop a few skinny branches. The point of having a "tough" folder is that it isn't just a knife, it's a multitool. Probably won't work very well, but if it's the only thing you have with you, it's good to know that it will do what needs to be done at least once.

[Blerv]

Sal and Ed clearly said the tool was not up to spec as that's an acceptable level of work. It hasn't been confirmed if this specific specimen was bad from the factory (rare) or influenced by the owner (more/less rare depending on the owner).

Personally the Tuff seems a perfectly valid tool for the job. A pruning saw, machete, or shears likely more efficient.

[kbuzbee]

Valid is the perfect word!

Wouldn't be my choice. As you say, other tools would be more efficient (and I'm lazy!)

Ken

[chuck_roxas45]

Sal and Ed clearly said the tool was not up to spec as that's an acceptable level of work. It hasn't been confirmed if this specific specimen was bad from the factory (rare) or influenced by the owner (more/less rare depending on the owner).

Personally the Tuff seems a perfectly valid tool for the job. A pruning saw, machete, or shears likely more efficient.

And that gentlemen, is how it's done. Straight and true to the point. Well done!

[Cliff Stamp]

Just because the folding knife is strong enough, doesn't mean the knife has enough mass, proper balance, ergonomics, blade geometry, length etc for useful chopping.

And who is saying that the Tuff is the best option if you want to trim branches? A pruning shear is usually the best option there for ease of use, safety and long term maintenance (almost none). But of course the reason that you don't use that is that unless you are a gardened you are unlikely to have one on you.

The argument is that if you have the Tuff on you and you wanted to do it then it would be perfectly sensible to expect it to not fail catastrophically not that you would expect it to outperform a set of shears.

In general most people are not going to carry a tool box with them constantly and pull out optimized tools for every job but instead for pocket knives they would pick the one which would have the best overall match to what they do and then as they do what they do the knife would perform more/less capable over the normal scope of work.

If you look at the Tuff what exactly would you expect it to do given the nature of the lock, blade cross section and steel? What are the activities that it is supposed to do well, what are you doing that you would want to carry it? It had to be at a minimum designed for work which greatly exceeds the ability of knives which are not designed for heavy loads because they will cut much better than it, i.e., it is the the wrong tool for the job.

I don't understand the logic behind "if it's tough enough to survive the job, then it's the right tool for the job."

The argument is that it falls within the general scope of work. Most knives are in general multi-purpose items. A knife isn't the ideal letter opener for example (safety) but they are commonly used as such. A paramiliary isn't the ideal kitchen utility knife but can easily be used as one during camping where you are not going to pack a K08, etc. . If I used a paramiliary for opening a letter and the blade snapped in half would you really argue "well that isn't the right tool for the job" and say simply because it is tough enough doesn't mean it should be used for that?

[chuck_roxas45]

Well said Cliff! If we're basing on other posts, some people would like everybody to treat the tuff like a slipjoint.

[Cliff Stamp]

There seems to be a point between using the knife like an Opinel and using it to as a breaching tool which a lot of people seem to be jumping to automatically. I carried a Paramiliary for years and it wasn't because it replaced an Opinel for light work, it was because it had a much wider scope of work due to :

-very strong/stable lock
-much thicker blade (through the spine)
-higher blade security/grip in hand

[chuck_roxas45]

There seems to be a point between using the knife like an Opinel and using it to as a breaching tool which a lot of people seem to be jumping to automatically. I carried a Paramiliary for years and it wasn't because it replaced an Opinel for light work, it was because it had a much wider scope of work due to :

-very strong/stable lock
-much thicker blade (through the spine)
-higher blade security/grip in hand

This is a good point which I just didn't have the communication skills to convey. This is also the reason why I'm so curious about strength and lock reliability. If we knew the stresses that a certain knife is designed for, then using it properly would be very much clear cut. If a knife fails with use within the design parameters, then it's obviously defective and should be sent to the manufacturer for evaluation.

If a knife fails because the user exceeded the design parameters, then we know who's at fault and it would not necessitate a few dozen pages of discussion.

[Blerv]

If a knife fails because the user exceeded the design parameters, then we know who's at fault and it would not necessitate a few dozen pages of discussion.

Well put Chuck :) . It's out obligation as the informed to pick the right tool for the job. To buy a tool and seek out a task seems counter-intuitive. Mechanicial empathy and understanding is key no matter how robust the machinery.

[KardinalSyn]

We all know folders have too many moving parts and yet we keep buying them. I wonder why we do that? May the force be with you all.

[Onionman]

While the original poster's reasons for using the Tuff to cut branches may seem foolish when you consider the other options available, it does concern me that had it been an emergency situation when you cannot account for every possible use, there was a failure of the Tuff in some respect from an activity that you would expect it to handle. I want to feel confident in the knife I carry and would hope (if not expect) the Tuff to take some abuse in an emergency situation. Hopefully Spyderco will get to examine the knife and find out what happened.

[Cliff Stamp]

If a knife fails because the user exceeded the design parameters, then we know who's at fault and it would not necessitate a few dozen pages of discussion.

Curiously enough, it isn't the maker or designer who is arguing that. It is rare to see that being posited in general because it would immediately admit to a vastly inferior design / execution.

[JNewell]

Yes...but it's all just speculation until Spyderco gets a chance to examine the knife.

[Blerv]

Yes...but it's all just speculation until Spyderco gets a chance to examine the knife.

Nah. There is cotton candy and pony rides on page 10. Wait for it!