To Chisel or not to Chisel

[Evil D]

My only experience with one is a cheap Gerber Ridge that i think you'd call a chisel grind with a bevel on one side. It was ok, not nearly thin enough behind the edge. Just like a convex, i'm sure they have their place but i'll stick with a standard V.

[rodloos]

Can't say I'm very fond of chisel grinds. Maybe because I don't have a high-end Emerson with one :D , just a CRKT Kiss - interesting design, but with the chisel grind on that side it doesn't work as well for me when whittling etc, which much of my knife use consists of (maybe if I was left-handed it would work for me?). It's just harder to cut a straight line with chisel grind. Even slicing paper, it seems to make the cut want to curve.

As for chisel grind on both sides, wouldn't that make it like a Scandi grind? :)

[The Deacon]

As for chisel grind on both sides, wouldn't that make it like a Scandi grind? :)

Either that, or he's talking about something like the Besh Wedge, or possibly about a regular chisel grind, but with a visible edge grind (so two grinds, but both on the same side and edge).

[Donut]

I think what I've figured out from this thread:

Chisel grinds are only good for doctors. :)

[v8r]

I think what I've figured out from this thread:

Chisel grinds are only good for doctors. :)

Yeah the rest of us don't have steady enough hands

[v8r]

Snody/ Spyderco colab .....problem solved

[jackknifeh]

Funny thing is that, just like Spyderco's serrations, a lot of makers do chisel grinds "for show", rather than "for go", so they're actually ground correctly for left handed users.

Which side is for left hand and which is side is considered for right hand people? I think Spyderco serrations are ground on the "front" of the blade or knife. Is that for right or left hand people and why would it matter?

Jack

[The Deacon]

Which side is for left hand and which is side is considered for right hand people? I think Spyderco serrations are ground on the "front" of the blade or knife. Is that for right or left hand people and why would it matter?

Jack

Well Jack, "front" is a function of which hand you use. As for serrations and chisel grinds, they should be on the "back" side for maximum effectiveness. For right handed people, that would be the right side of the blade, for left handed people, the left side. Quality chisel ground Japanese kitchen knives are ground that way, and some have left handed versions available. There are certainly some exceptions, but most Western makers put the most visually interesting/attractive side to the front. In practice it's not as big a deal for serrations as for chisel grinds, since it only matters when doing the type of cutting chisel grinds are best for, removing a relatively thin slice from one end, or surface, of something.

[Blerv]

Depending on your hand dominance the "right" or "wrong" is contextual. Plus, with the exception of cutting certain materials a sharp serrated Spyderco doesn't really pull one way or another.

I think Spyderco forms the serrations so the average person (right hand) who buys a knife can see the grind line when they are using it. Performance wise in most cases a sharp knife is just a sharp knife.

Now...makers that grind HORRIBLE serrations, typically combo blades, seem to just be selling to the tacky-tal mall ninjas. If performance is the goal they are in the wrong solar system. :rolleyes:

[Rwb1500]

I think what I've figured out from this thread:

Chisel grinds are only good for doctors. :)

And sushi chefs.

[Dr. Snubnose]

Fact is I have both right hand and left hand grinds....both work effectively in either hand...so people who think there is right grind for right handed people etc......as misinformed...sorry.....Doc :)

[The Deacon]

Fact is I have both right hand and left hand grinds....both work effectively in either hand...so people who think there is right grind for right handed people etc......as misinformed...sorry.....Doc :)

I respectfully disagree. Granted, when used as a weapon or for tasks like cutting rope it makes no difference, but for precision cutting it most certainly does.

[Dr. Snubnose]

Yes precision wood working of sorts...I agree.. though you could always turn the knife over in hand for those..but for most tasks......it plain just doesn't matter........both are equally effective regardless of the hand you are using....Doc :)

[SolidState]

I was just going to jump in with my observations from doing custom saya and tsuka (scabbards and handles) for japanese swords, that orientation of your kiridashi definitely matters, especially if you fit a pull plane to the kiridashi. Then angle and edge of grind really matter. Kiridashi really are great all purpose edged tools though, and I too am a doctor.

[Dr. Snubnose]

I was just going to jump in with my observations from doing custom saya and tsuka (scabbards and handles) for japanese swords, that orientation of your kiridashi definitely matters, especially if you fit a pull plane to the kiridashi. Then angle and edge of grind really matter. Kiridashi really are great all purpose edged tools though, and I too am a doctor.

Ay Doc: Can you explain that a little further.....cause it would seem to me that if you fit a kiridashi to a pull plane, the grind shouldn't matter, only how it orientates to the plane, now the angle would matter but you should be able to set the angle, assuming the dashi was long enough to rise a distance above the Dai, you should be able to wedge it in there for angle.....or is my thinking way off base?......Doc :)

[Blerv]

My main problem is comparing apples to oranges when buying knives. I get a Spydie and then want to try another non-name brand, their product doesn't deliver.

I would like to try one as a Spyderco. That way the edge geometry and heat treat would be remotely dialed in as constants.

[jackknifeh]

Well Jack, "front" is a function of which hand you use. As for serrations and chisel grinds, they should be on the "back" side for maximum effectiveness. For right handed people, that would be the right side of the blade, for left handed people, the left side. Quality chisel ground Japanese kitchen knives are ground that way, and some have left handed versions available. There are certainly some exceptions, but most Western makers put the most visually interesting/attractive side to the front. In practice it's not as big a deal for serrations as for chisel grinds, since it only matters when doing the type of cutting chisel grinds are best for, removing a relatively thin slice from one end, or surface, of something.

If I understand correctly, Spyderco serrations are on the side for left handed people. I read the description of the techno. The RIL is on the back side of the handle and it is designed for right handed people primarily. Am I thinking correctly and what is the thinking on why one side is better than the other for the bevel of a chisel edge depending on which hand you hold the knife? I think when cutting the blade will try to turn toward the "flat" side of the blade. You need to use force against this to keep the knife cutting straight.

A chisel ground edge should try to cut along the line in the center of the two sides of the distance of the grind. Compared to that line the line through the center of the blade "turns" at the top of the ground part. If I try to slice a ham with s standard edge the knife cuts straight down. A chisel edge will try to turn into the ham or out, making the slices thinner depending on which side the bevel is on. I am very curious about the thinking here even though I don't cut enough food for it to really matter for me. I can see how a chisel edge might keep the blade cutting along a bone easier.

The only time I have seen a chisel edge be benificial is on a chisel.

Jack

[SolidState]

Ay Doc: Can you explain that a little further.....cause it would seem to me that if you fit a kiridashi to a pull plane, the grind shouldn't matter, only how it orientates to the plane, now the angle would matter but you should be able to set the angle, assuming the dashi was long enough to rise a distance above the Dai, you should be able to wedge it in there for angle.....or is my thinking way off base?......Doc :)

Great question Doc, I take it you may have tried this before. I have tried fitting a few kiridashi into pull planes to do v-cuts on the pull stroke, and my findings have been mixed. I have done this to try and better control depth and consistency in my saya for wakizashi and katana.

The angle I was trying to describe is the angle made between the side of the tool and the edge of the tool. It is very difficult to utilize a 30-degree-pointed kiridashi in a plane, but easy to use a 30-degree edge.
In all of my professional planes, the dashi is set with the grind toward the wood being cut with the grind set to flush with the dai. I have found the other orientation to give less consistent pull cuts, but that may be my lack of skill.

[The Deacon]

If I understand correctly, Spyderco serrations are on the side for left handed people. I read the description of the techno. The RIL is on the back side of the handle and it is designed for right handed people primarily. Am I thinking correctly and what is the thinking on why one side is better than the other for the bevel of a chisel edge depending on which hand you hold the knife? I think when cutting the blade will try to turn toward the "flat" side of the blade. You need to use force against this to keep the knife cutting straight.

A chisel ground edge should try to cut along the line in the center of the two sides of the distance of the grind. Compared to that line the line through the center of the blade "turns" at the top of the ground part. If I try to slice a ham with s standard edge the knife cuts straight down. A chisel edge will try to turn into the ham or out, making the slices thinner depending on which side the bevel is on. I am very curious about the thinking here even though I don't cut enough food for it to really matter for me. I can see how a chisel edge might keep the blade cutting along a bone easier.

The only time I have seen a chisel edge be benificial is on a chisel.

Jack

Jack, it's less of an issue with serrations than it is with a chisel grind, but in both cases, if the "ground" side is toward the "loaf" and the "flat" side toward the "slice" you're going to have more resistance and more of a tendency for the cut to diverge from the vertical. With serrations you will also have more of a tendency to chew up the material. I've sliced loaves of fresh home baked bread both left and right handed with a K01 Bread Knife and doing it left handed creates a lot less crumbs. Cutting from the left end of the loaf right handed produces the same result as cutting left handed, but is about as awkward as it gets.

Truth is, like most other "what grind is better" issues, the difference between the best and the worst depends a lot on what's being cut, a little on who's doing the cutting, and is often subjective and almost always fairly minor. Still, watching someone attempting to filet a fish or shave with the wrong side of a chisel ground knife could be entertaining.

[angusW]

For a while I have been hoping that Spyderco would make a Kiridashi type knife especially after reading one of Doc's threads on a custom Kiri he just got. Of course the problem I see is the chisel grind would probably be right handed. Mind you, for a Kiridashi it wouldn't matter for some cuts but some I would think it would matter like sharpening a pencil which I do quite often with my knives. I don't get the chance to cut much food but I can see how cutting a tomato would make a difference.

I don't have any chisel ground knives but would be interested if Spyderco made one.