The "WHY" of the Bushing Pivot?

[chuck_roxas45]

I really liked the pivot system of the Para 1. Easy enough to tweak out blade play, if any.


And how smooth do you really need your knives to be?


No play trumps smoothness for me just as long as it's not excessively gritty. My millies are pretty darn smooth enough for me without having to contend with bladeplay.

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

I really liked the pivot system of the Para 1. Easy enough to tweak out blade play, if any.


And how smooth do you really need your knives to be?


No play trumps smoothness for me just as long as it's not excessively gritty. My millies are pretty darn smooth enough for me without having to contend with bladeplay.

None of my Manix2s or Para2s have any play in them at all. No sorry...my standard production M2 has a tiny bit of side to side, but I also took that one apart so I don't think that really counts. And I could probably get rid of the play by messing with tightening each side bit by bit til it was perfect. And they just drop when the lock is released and I like that a lot.

[sal]

Thanx much for all of the input. We're still chatting.

sal

[chuck_roxas45]

None of my Manix2s or Para2s have any play in them at all. No sorry...my standard production M2 has a tiny bit of side to side, but I also took that one apart so I don't think that really counts. And I could probably get rid of the play by messing with tightening each side bit by bit til it was perfect. And they just drop when the lock is released and I like that a lot.

I wonder how you'll feel if you have play that can't be tweaked away or if it can, I don't have the skills to do it. :D

I just try to ignore the play because of the awesome steels and luckily, I've been able to tweak out the play on my regular P2. So it's all good but it would nicer to have no play like on the P1 or the Millie.

No dissing Snoo but I've found that most people who do prefer the bushed pivot are the lucky ones who have specimens with no blade play.

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

I wonder how you'll feel if you have play that can't be tweaked away or if it can, I don't have the skills to do it. :D

I just try to ignore the play because of the awesome steels and luckily, I've been able to tweak out the play on my regular P2. So it's all good but it would nicer to have no play like on the P1 or the Millie.

No dissing Snoo but I've found that most people who do prefer the bushed pivot are the lucky ones who have specimens with no blade play.

Well, I would probably be pretty pissed. But, I think that all it really takes is some patience. I just start by tightening each side a bit at a time past snug until both sides have been pretty much fully tightened down fully. I'm talking like maybe an 1/8 of a turn or less per side. It just seems to ensure that you don't get one pulling things off to the side just that little bit which would allow some play. As Sal has said, the tolerances are tight.

I think that the play would likely come from one screw bottoming out and not being able to be tightened that last little tweak that would properly snug everything up. I would use the method above to see if I would balance it out, or even use a bit of sandpaper to grind down the end of the screw just a tiny bit to see if you could tighten it down just that fraction more.

[chuck_roxas45]

Well, I would probably be pretty pissed. But, I think that all it really takes is some patience. I just start by tightening each side a bit at a time past snug until both sides have been pretty much fully tightened down fully. I'm talking like maybe an 1/8 of a turn or less per side. It just seems to ensure that you don't get one pulling things off to the side just that little bit which would allow some play. As Sal has said, the tolerances are tight.

I think that the play would likely come from one screw bottoming out and not being able to be tightened that last little tweak that would properly snug everything up. I would use the method above to see if I would balance it out, or even use a bit of sandpaper to grind down the end of the screw just a tiny bit to see if you could tighten it down just that fraction more.

That's just it snoo, it may be doable on the P2 but on the non-bushed pivots, you hardly had to do any tweaking at all. I don't really like to tweak if at all possible but it is what it is. :)

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

That's just it snoo, it may be doable on the P2 but on the non-bushed pivots, you hardly had to do any tweaking at all. I don't really like to tweak if at all possible but it is what it is. :)

Maybe. But I think that any knife with a screwed pivot is going to need adjusting at sometime. And I think that the smooth action and the freely moving blade are things that I am glad to trade for a little more fiddle-y adjustments when needed.

Of course there are probably lots of people that fall on either side of this, and that is ok. I would probably end up just as satisfied with a knife that had non bushed pivot, I just tend to prefer the bushed and where given a choice would gladly take them over the non bushed.

[Splice]

I personally love how ultra-smooth my pm2 is. I vote for keeping it.

[Roundabout136]

I vote to keep as well.

I don't think I gave my PM2 enough of a break in period. I got antsy and took it apart to see the insides and so forth. The engineer inside me.

Super smooth and fast. I seriously could flick this thing open all day.

Just a tiny tiny bit of wiggle side to side. Can't get it out, tried everything.

[dsmegst]

I do appreciate the engineering behind the stepped pivots but in using various Spydies, I don't miss it. It's a testament to how good the standard pivots become when broken in. I prefer a bit of tightness on all my folders so I crank down on the stepped pivots to add just enough friction to not allow a complete free movement.

[TBob]

Sal,

I have no complaints with Spyderco's implementation of any of the designs I own. I haven't "tweaked" any of them, just keep them clean and lubed. Thanks for the engineering that you put into your designs, and for listening to your community.

[Evil D]

I really liked the pivot system of the Para 1. Easy enough to tweak out blade play, if any.


And how smooth do you really need your knives to be?


No play trumps smoothness for me just as long as it's not excessively gritty. My millies are pretty darn smooth enough for me without having to contend with bladeplay.

As far as compression locks go, i just need it smooth enough to drop by gravity so i can press the lock and drop the blade shut. If that one detail is lost, i won't buy another compression lock equipped knife. That's the sole reason i prefer this lock over any other (except of course the CBBL).

[dsmegst]

I wonder how you'll feel if you have play that can't be tweaked away or if it can, I don't have the skills to do it. :D

I just try to ignore the play because of the awesome steels and luckily, I've been able to tweak out the play on my regular P2. So it's all good but it would nicer to have no play like on the P1 or the Millie.

No dissing Snoo but I've found that most people who do prefer the bushed pivot are the lucky ones who have specimens with no blade play.

I've had a few Manix 2s (early examples right after the introduction of the stepped pivot) that I had to modify to get them to my liking. The recent ones have been much improved when it comes to side to side play and have tighter tolerances.

[phaust]

I personally love how ultra-smooth my pm2 is. I vote for keeping it.

The stepped pivot doesn't make it smoother.

[nullity]

I love pivot bushings... in theory.

If the bushing is perfectly toleranced, I love it.

If the tolerances aren't perfect, I'd rather have the user adjustability to fix it.


I use the word "perfectly" somewhat in jest, because what is too tight or too loose is subjective, and I can imagine that is a nightmare for a manufacturer.

[dialex]

It's complicated. On mass production knives, setting those tight tollerances is really a pain.

[phillipsted]

Just a note on the pinned construction. I have always loved the Wayne Goddard collaborations and have most of the variations Spyderco made. On the micarta models, with no liner, the micarta isn't as stable as FRN or G-10 and has caused two of my Goddards to become excessively tight. I sent my Junior in to be adjusted by SFO, but they were not able to give it back its nimble opening. That's the sacrifice you make with pinned pivots...

For me, I love the smooth opening of the Para2. It is simply a joy to use.

TedP

[sal]

Hi Ted,

We have noticed that micarta moves, pinned or screwed doesn't seem to matter. First learned about this from Phil Bogezewski 20 years ago. We ended up adding liners where we use micarta. Also micarta doesn't hold clip screws well, so the liners also offer a more secure fastening for clip screws.

sal

[ruggedscotsman]

Just my $.02

I don't care for the bushed/stepped pivot on the Manix 2, Yojimbo 2, and Para 2.

I like my knives to be a bit tighter and I cannot tighten them down to the point that I usually like.

It's a very small gripe but I would just like to throw it in the hat with the rest.

Some of the longest lasting knives I own are pinned and they still have no play.

I think I have to agree...

I've had a pinned calypso jr ss for many years, and there is still zero play in any direction. In fact, I always thought it was a point of pride that spyderco design/build quality was so good, it made bushings/washers unnecessary.

I was looking very hard at the gayle bradley, but can't get past this (among a few others) feature. Seems to me that it would reduce lateral rigidity, and potentially increased wear/slack over time.

[Evil D]

I used to be a big supporter of pinned knives because my one long time user pinned knife had never developed any play, but that recently ended. My Centofante 4 has finally developed a little side to side play after recently rotating it with my Yojimbo 2. It isn't a lot, and like my Para 2 and Yo 2, you would have to know what to look for to even know it's there, but if you know how to test for it you can definitely feel it.

So, 4 months after this thread, i have to come to the conclusion that i do prefer having the bushing. I've gone back and played with my Para 1 a bit, and i just can not find a sweet spot in that pivot where the blade will drop as smooth as my Para 2 without having at least as much play as the Para 2 has. The only non bushing knife i can easily compare it to is my Military, which i can adjust so there's no play (or at least so little that it's irrelevant) and the blade will fall shut with gravity, but then that blade is much larger and heavier than a Para 1 blade too. The lock and detent action also feel much better IMO on the Para 2 than the Para 1. Like all things though, your mileage my vary.