Sage 1..is it true about the CF?

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

Hi Knight,

The answer to your question gets more complicated year by year. When we first began using carbon fiber back in the 90's with the Walker, we used solid carbon fiber that we managed to get from the F1 builders. HP Klotzly made the knives (we made the blades in Golden).

As more and more carbon fiber entered the market, variations abound. Now some of our knives are made with carbon only, some are a mix with G-10, some are not even carbon fiber, but glass fiber with no carbon in the layup.

When we say carbon fiber, we mean that some or all of the handle is carbon fiber, and contains carbon. When we say glass fiber, it means some or all of the handle will be glass fiber, certain combinations work better.

Hope that helps.

sal

Not to be a sh!t disturber Sal...but it really doesn't seem to answer much at all.

My personal opinion is that it doesn't matter really. The prices on the Sage, GB and other Taiwanese made knives with the twill CF are extremely good, and if there happens to be a G-10 liner or whatever, so be it, won't stop me from buying a knife if I like it.
But your answer kinda doesn't really address the theme of this thread which is about the make up of the Sage specifically.

[jzmtl]

Not to be a sh!t disturber Sal...but it really doesn't seem to answer much at all.

I read it to be just a roundabout way of saying yes. :confused:

[Cheddarnut]

Part of running a successful business is speaking politician. Part of maintaining our interest is 2.5% mystery, 0.70 percent forthwithishness, and the remainder is pure irony.
Or MFi-257.

[speedcut]

I saw that my taiwanese knives have what seems to be a layer of G10 on the handle and over it carbon fiber - while my japanese knives seems to be 100% carbon fiber.... :)

[The Deacon]

Not to be a sh!t disturber Sal...but it really doesn't seem to answer much at all.

My personal opinion is that it doesn't matter really. The prices on the Sage, GB and other Taiwanese made knives with the twill CF are extremely good, and if there happens to be a G-10 liner or whatever, so be it, won't stop me from buying a knife if I like it.
But your answer kinda doesn't really address the theme of this thread which is about the make up of the Sage specifically.

Look at it this way, you're not buying gold jewelery, where actual gold content and whether the item is solid gold or gold plated is of some importance. The visible surface of the material in question is woven CF. What lies beneath that may have impacted the cost of the material, and thus the cost of manufacture and the MSRP.

Assuming the under layers are something other than CF, then it comes down to three questions. Would solid CF scales make the knife perform any better? Would most potential customers willingly pay a higher price for them? And, perhaps most importantly, would the "nubby" surface treatment that most of us find both attractive and beneficial still be possible?

Given that the liners on a Sage I are thick enough that you could take the scales off and use it as a SS framelock without sacrificing strength, the answer to the first is pretty obvious.

[The Deacon]

I saw that my taiwanese knives have what seems to be a layer of G10 on the handle and over it carbon fiber - while my japanese knives seems to be 100% carbon fiber.... :)

If you believe Spyderco is an honest company, that the price you pay is a reflection of the actual material and labor costs, then the actual composition of the under layers is of no real importance. On the other hand, if you believe Spyderco is cheating you, substituting a cheaper material and charging you for a more expensive one, then it's probably time for you to look for another knife company.

[araneae]

So, there is NO unicorn horn in there at all?

[speedcut]

If you believe Spyderco is an honest company, that the price you pay is a reflection of the actual material and labor costs, then the actual composition of the under layers is of no real importance. On the other hand, if you believe Spyderco is cheating you, substituting a cheaper material and charging you for a more expensive one, then it's probably time for you to look for another knife company.

I am a Spyderco fan and always will be because of the way in which Mr. Glesser runs his company among may other great things - but it seems to me that the right way to deal with those things is to mention on the presentation paper of the knife every material that the handle is made from...

[Blerv]

I am a Spyderco fan and always will be because of the way in which Mr. Glesser runs his company among may other great things - but it seems to me that the right way to deal with those things is to mention on the presentation paper of the knife every material that the handle is made from...

Spyderco Sage 1

Ingredients: Enriched wheat flour, sugar, corn syrup, niacin, water, high fructose corn syrup, vegetable and/or animal shortening – containing one or more of partially hydrogenated soybean, cottonseed and canola oil, and beef fat, dextrose, whole eggs, modified corn starch, cellulose gum, whey, leavenings (sodium acid pyrophosphate, baking soda, monocalcium phosphate), salt, cornstarch, corn flour, corn syrup, solids, mono and diglycerides, soy lecithin, polysorbate 60, dextrin, calcium caseinate, sodium stearoyl lactylate, wheat gluten, calcium sulphate, natural and artificial flavours, caramel colour, yellow #5, red #40, CPM-S30v, Real Carbon Fiber, Undisclosed Carbon Fiber-esque material.

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

Look at it this way, you're not buying gold jewelery, where actual gold content and whether the item is solid gold or gold plated is of some importance. The visible surface of the material in question is woven CF. What lies beneath that may have impacted the cost of the material, and thus the cost of manufacture and the MSRP.

Assuming the under layers are something other than CF, then it comes down to three questions. Would solid CF scales make the knife perform any better? Would most potential customers willingly pay a higher price for them? And, perhaps most importantly, would the "nubby" surface treatment that most of us find both attractive and beneficial still be possible?

Given that the liners on a Sage I are thick enough that you could take the scales off and use it as a SS framelock without sacrificing strength, the answer to the first is pretty obvious.

Like I had posted. The answer whatever it happens to be, doesn't bother me. 100% CF or some mixture of CF and G-10 or whatever it is for the cost of the knives that have the twill CF scales, I am happy enough with any answer. However, there have been a few threads in the time that I have been here speculating on the material in the scales and no response from Sal and Co. Then when there is one, it really doesn't answer anything. It is just sort of a blanket statement. I have come to expect more transparency and upfront answers from Spyderco and it makes me curious as to why there hasn't been one on this question.

I own a Terzuola and a GB and love both knives. I will likely buy an Air, and any other knives that are Taiwanese produced that I like because I think that they are the best knives that Spyderco has ever produced. But, I would still like to know the answer to the question asked. Even if the answer happens to be that it is some proprietary new combination that is a secret so details can't be released. At least that would be an actual answer which, as I have said, is what we usually see from Sal and Co.

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

Spyderco Sage 1

Ingredients: Enriched wheat flour, sugar, corn syrup, niacin, water, high fructose corn syrup, vegetable and/or animal shortening – containing one or more of partially hydrogenated soybean, cottonseed and canola oil, and beef fat, dextrose, whole eggs, modified corn starch, cellulose gum, whey, leavenings (sodium acid pyrophosphate, baking soda, monocalcium phosphate), salt, cornstarch, corn flour, corn syrup, solids, mono and diglycerides, soy lecithin, polysorbate 60, dextrin, calcium caseinate, sodium stearoyl lactylate, wheat gluten, calcium sulphate, natural and artificial flavours, caramel colour, yellow #5, red #40, CPM-S30v, Real Carbon Fiber, Undisclosed Carbon Fiber-esque material.

That sounds like a tasty knife.

[Appler]

To riff off of Snoo's comments, not one OP on this subject has ever asked if it "matters". Only the people responding want to change the subject. All the OPs want to know is what their handle is made out of.

And BTW, of course it doesn't "matter"... when there are human beings all over the world at this very moment with flies crawling on them, nothing involving $100 knives does. People just want to know where their money went so they can decide whether or not they feel they got a good value.

[Blerv]

That sounds like a tasty knife.

It's a combination of a Twinkie and a Sage 1. :D

Regarding the vague statement it's quite possible Sal just doesn't want to. Other makers may very well be reading the forums and disclosing trade secrets isn't a wise tactic.

Someone could always take a sample of the front and the back and send them to a lab. They could even scrape a small sliver of the back and put it under a microscope to see if anything shows up.

Still, the results would have a very little functional (ie none) impact on the knife itself being simply tactile and aesthetic eye-candy.

To riff off of Snoo's comments, not one OP on this subject has ever asked if it "matters". Only the people responding want to change the subject. All the OPs want to know is what their handle is made out of.

That is a very good point. Many people have been side-tracking logic to the "Does it matter?" because that would be the next question to any answer given.

Fact the decision to disclose exact specifications is completely up to Spyderco.

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

It's a combination of a Twinkie and a Sage 1. :D

Regarding the vague statement it's quite possible Sal just doesn't want to. Other makers may very well be reading the forums and disclosing trade secrets isn't a wise tactic.

Someone could always take a sample of the front and the back and send them to a lab. They could even scrape a small sliver of the back and put it under a microscope to see if anything shows up.

Still, the results would have a very little functional (ie none) impact on the knife itself being simply tactile and aesthetic eye-candy.

It was the beef fat that really did it for me :rolleyes: :D

I agree with what you are saying, but like I said, I would expect Sal to just come out and say that.

[The Deacon]

Perhaps because Sal himself does not know the exact composition of the material. I suspect it's not G-10, because G-10 uses a different resin from that used in CF composites, and I would not expect them to bond well. So, assuming the fabric is not all carbon fiber, then it's probably some other fabric as the under layers, CF as the top layers, all embedded in the same resin at the same time. The other fabic might be fiberglass cloth, a synthetic fiber, or perhaps even something like canvas. Since it's only real purpose it to make the finished sheet thicker, it's conceivable that whoever manufacturers it does not share that information.

[phillipsted]

So, there is NO unicorn horn in there at all?

I don't think so, but I heard rumors that all Spydercos (except the Byrd line) contain real Phoenix Feathers.

:cool:

TedP

[jabba359]

Perhaps because Sal himself does not know the exact composition of the material. I suspect it's not G-10, because G-10 uses a different resin from that used in CF composites, and I would not expect them to bond well. So, assuming the fabric is not all carbon fiber, then it's probably some other fabric as the under layers, CF as the top layers, all embedded in the same resin at the same time. The other fabic might be fiberglass cloth, a synthetic fiber, or perhaps even something like canvas. Since it's only real purpose it to make the finished sheet thicker, it's conceivable that whoever manufacturers it does not share that information.

G-10 bonds to CF just fine. There are plenty of manufacturers who sell layered G-10/CF material (like this). Either way, I'm pretty sure that it's CF on top and some sort of other material underneath. Having removed my CF Sage scales, the back looks unlike any carbon fiber, finished or unfinished, that I have ever seen. Whatever it is, I will continue to buy knives in this material because I love how it looks, feels, and costs.

[gbelleh]

I never would've bought the Sage 1 if I knew it had high fructose corn syrup and partially hydrogenated oils.

[dsmegst]

G-10 bonds to CF just fine. There are plenty of manufacturers who sell layered G-10/CF material (like this). Either way, I'm pretty sure that it's CF on top and some sort of other material underneath. Having removed my CF Sage scales, the back looks unlike any carbon fiber, finished or unfinished, that I have ever seen. Whatever it is, I will continue to buy knives in this material because I love how it looks, feels, and costs.

When I removed the lanyard bump off the Terzuola and refinished the butt end of that knife, the patterning and thickness between the layers were very even. If you look at the G-10/CF layering of the material shown in the link above, the layers are very different. The only difference I saw was between the top weaved layer and the rest of the material.

Think about the added complexity of having to fuse layers of different materials and the additional work that goes into it. Unless a CF/G10 composite offers some sort of structural advantage, why add useless complexity? It makes no sense to me.

[DiKa]

i am a spyderco fan and always will be because of the way in which mr. Glesser runs his company among may other great things - but it seems to me that the right way to deal with those things is to mention on the presentation paper of the knife every material that the handle is made from...

+1